Interesting discussion and just a side point. As I review plans for the fire department I do require a signature, date and stamp of the design professional under whose direction the hydraulic calcs and layout were prepared. I do not say PE or ME But I do want to know who is responsible for the layout and calcs. The State also requires the same. In the end I do not approve of the layout but accept it once I verify that it meets all the code requirements since the signer is accepting responsibility for the layout and calcs. I have found input errors and errors in layout even after the State has reviewed the plans first. If I have questions it is the person whose signature I have on the layout that I talk to. Simplifies our review considerably.
Norm On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 6:06 PM, Mark Sornsin <mark.sorn...@ulteig.com>wrote: > Those in the business since the 1970s please correct me if I'm wrong: > > It's been my impression that there is another factor at work, and that is > the fact that fire sprinkler design once used to be relatively simple - you > went to NFPA 13 for your spacing rules and pipe schedule information, etc. > Design was more akin to plumbing design. Hence, the engineers relegated it > to their techs. Many engineering plans I've seen from the 1960s show pipe > layouts and sizes - not often run in logical locations (e.g. branch lines > parallel to the joists), but certainly far closer to reality than today's > efforts by most engineering firms. > > As time went on technology and progress changed the game, the engineers > were too out of it to notice. Then all of a sudden, sprinklers were being > required in more and more buildings - yet most didn't bother to change. And > here we are. > > To be fair, I know of a few MEs who recognize this issue and have done > something about it. They have either avoided fire sprinkler specifying, or > they have gotten educated. In both cases they are being true to their > professional engineering code of ethics. As far as I'm concerned it's > criminal that more haven't altered their practice in one of these two ways. > > I don't claim to be a perfect PE; but I accept my limitations. I have never > signed an HVAC or plumbing drawing, despite my ME degree. I wish the same > were true of the MEs who don't know fire suppression. > > Mark A. Sornsin, PE| Fire Protection Engineer > Ulteig Engineers, Inc.| Fargo, ND > mark.sorn...@ulteig.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto: > sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman > Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 11:44 AM > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > Subject: Re: Engineers Stamp vs. Seal > > That points to one of my favorite things about this controversy: When there > wasn't much going on techs were sufficient but when there became real and > sustained money to be made all of a sudden inexperienced engineers became > more knowledgeable by legislative fiat than thirty year veteran techs. > Wizard of Oz stuff. > > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:29 AM, 321 <tcf...@bellsouth.net> wrote: > > > ----Original Message----- > > From: > > sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org[mailto: > > sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] > > On Behalf Of A.P.Silva > > Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 12:19 PM > > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > Subject: RE: Engineers Stamp vs. Seal > > > > Was it different before 30 years? > > > > Tony > > > > ...about 35 years ago the only work we were doing was insurance > > mandated warehouse and commercial property conservation systems for > FM...IRI,etc. > > When > > the codes changed during the boom in the late 70's ~ early '80's the > > PE community decided that they needed to get in on the action. About > > 10% of the PE's involved in Fire Sprinklers here in Florida know what > > they are doing and are pretty sharp...the rest of them are clueless. > > > > > > John W. Farabee > > Vice President Fire Sprinkler Operations State License No. > > 20251600012010 > > 1480 SW 3RD Street Suite 9 > > Pompano Beach, Fl 33411 > > 954-785-7800 800-372-2770 Telephone > > 954-785-7804 Fax > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: George Church <g...@rowesprinkler.com> > > To: "sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org" > > <sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org> > > Sent: Mon, August 29, 2011 3:45:36 PM > > Subject: RE: Engineers Stamp vs. Seal > > > > No. > > Maybe even worse. > > I remember in mid/late 70's we'd explain to the PEs what the reams of > > computer printouts meant (generated by the mainframe in Cleveland HQ > > by guys in white coats on raised > > floors) > > After we got done our explanation, they'd stamp em approved and send > > em back to us. > > > > Yes, this is when fittings were threaded then a 1'-6 pce TG to a > > grooved > > coupling- > > > > I believe the cost of two 6" grooved 90's and 4 couplings was the same > > as > > 16 > > hours of Local 692 labor in Phila. > > We had 5" and 3.5", and a lot of 1-1-1.25.......still have those > > memorized, even above and below. > > > > Frankly, I think it more important to focus on getting sprinklers in > > houses rather than licensing laws. > > We'd save more people, create a larger market, and we have actually > > achieved our goals in some pockets, one of them being PA for 4 months. > > Whereas, are there ANY jurisdictions where FPEs specify all criteria, > > give us corrected flow tests for basis of calcs, on 90% or more of > > projects? > > I'll wager none on Earth except Lake Woebegone, just up the Red River > > from Fargo, where all the children are above average, and there's a PTA. > > > > I was told once that getting drunk drivers off the road would save > > more lives than all our residential sprinklers- and at 3,000 annual > > deaths vrs 55,000 for drunks killing us, can't say I could argue. > > I just kept pushing for resi sprinklers, tho. I don't own an insurance > > company. > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20110830/0388bf44/attachment.html> _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
