Nature of the beast if a sprinkler contactor wants to do design-build work or have performance specs. Don't think any other model really exists today. If the sprinkler contractors want to do away with DB and PS then these things will get kicked up a level to sort out. I've never heard the contracting community wanting to move in THAT direction. Can't have it both ways. And yes I've been the white hat AHJ, gray hat sprinkler contractor and now the evil black hat engineer.
Chris Cahill, PE* Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation & Facilities Group Burns & McDonnell 8201 Norman Center Drive Bloomington, MN 55437 Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 [email protected] www.burnsmcd.com Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For *Registered in: MN -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:55 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Combustible Concealed Space We have run unto the use of COIN sprinkler multiple times and every time it is a problem. I completely disagree with a listing on a sprinkler that requires a change to the structure to be able to use it. It is a logistical nightmare to get the GC/Owner to comply. In addition, it confuses the AHJ's. Recently, we had the Fire Marshall getting the building department involved to make sure that the required draft curtain complied with the building code which caused even more trouble. TROUBLE - On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 9:31 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Chris, > > I just think it is unreasonable to rely on the sprinkler contractor to > make alterations to the construction or tell the GC how to build. What > if this was a 50,000 sqft area, is it protecting life and property at > a reasonable cost? I know it isn't the Architects fault, I was just > poking fun at NFPA for trying to be the tail wagging the dog. This > isn't a type of storage that has no test data, this is a type of > construction that I have seen many times yet it defies the obstruction > rules. Yes it is up to us to design to the type of construction not > alter the construction to meet one of NFPA's definitions. > > No offense taken, I spent many years as a designer and have the > requisite thick skin. > > Ron Fletcher > Aero Phoenix > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Cahill, > Christopher > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 7:04 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Combustible Concealed Space > > There are no NFPA 13 construction requirements. Yes, there are > certain non-sprinkler pipe features that must get added when you > choose a particular sprinkler solution. It's up to us to design the > sprinklers for the building design not the other way around. > > In this case fill with insulation is certainly a viable option. It > also sounds like there is a ULC vs UL issue. I would hope an AHJ > would consider accepting UL, FM, ETL, vDs, BS, EU....or Moe, Larry and > Curly Listing services even with as implied that is Code prohibited in > Canada. At least read the two testing standards of UL and ULC and > decide if the difference is material. And note 'there is no feasible" > that is a judgment call on what is or is not feasible. Implies there > is a way but someone doesn't like it. Remember when putting heads > under a floating ceiling some considered non-feasible, some probably > still do. We all know some think running pipe to EVERY sprinkler head is > non-feasible because we keep finding glued heads. > > Well what about alternate methods? If I give the AHJ the CC1 test > report doesn't that work? How about covering the side of the truss as > if it's a TGI and limit volumes to 160 cu.ft. > > So there are 4 potential solutions without pondering very hard: > Insulation > Alternate method - CC1 > Sucking it up and doing the non-feasible way Alternate method - > make'em TGI like > > Can't blame the architect when there are 4 potential solutions. And > even if there were none I still don't think you can blame the architect. > > Nothing personal Ron, the above appears harsher than it is meant. > > Chris Cahill, PE* > Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation & Facilities Group Burns & > McDonnell > 8201 Norman Center Drive > Bloomington, MN 55437 > Phone: 952.656.3652 > Fax: 952.229.2923 > [email protected] > www.burnsmcd.com > > Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For > *Registered > in: MN > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 1:51 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Combustible Concealed Space > > It's another case of Architects designing buildings that don't comply > with NFPA #13s' construction requirements. When will they learn that > NFPA 13 is building code as well as a sprinkler system installation standard? > > Ron Fletcher > Aero Phoenix > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 11:35 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Combustible Concealed Space > > I have a combustible concealed space above the main floor of a two > storey building that is required to be sprinklered. This space is 16" > deep and consists of open web trusses spaced 16" on-centre. The webs > are made of 2x4's, causing considerable obstructions. This space > qualifies for the use of heads listed for this use. > > My questions/dilemmas are as following: > > (1) There is no feasible possibility to avoid obstructions. Any comments? > (2) As far as I know, the CC heads are only made by TYCO and they are > not ULC listed. I'm in a Canadian jurisdiction. So can I say there is > no listed head (as the building code validates only ULC listings) and > use standard heads? > (3) If I use CC heads, can I use exposed blazemaster piping (subject > to the restrictions of course)? The problem is exposed blazemaster > piping is allowed only in its UL listing and not in ULC. So just going > around in circles. > > Thanks for any comments. > > Tony > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > -- Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC <http://www.livingwaterfp.com> 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 fax 850-937-1852 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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