Brad, What the hell are you talking about? My girlfriend says that there is nothing about moving heat in NFPA 13, and I sure couldn't find nothing.
Tony P On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Brad Casterline <[email protected]>wrote: > One more thing Anthony, if the head is under this moving heat, it will not > activate in those critical 10 to 15 minutes it takes the Heros to get > there, so they are useless as a pool cue hard on both ends but soft in the > middle. > > > On Mar 23, 2014, at 10:34 AM, Brad Casterline <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > Sal, I believe years ago, for a very brief time, Potter-Roemer had a > listed heat collector. I called them Dust Pans. > > Tony, for 30 years I was a designer for contractors and the last 10 I > have worked for a Consulting Firm. I desperately miss the smell of warm > cutting oil on smoke breaks out in the shop. Instead of heat collecting > around a head, picture it moving across a head. > > Cecil, I think I see what you did there. No question or request for more > details-- I simply thought you would appreciate the results I got from > modeling my question of myself "which activates faster, a 155 SR or a 200 > QR? if I used Dr. Floyd's excellent set-up instead of my own. I had gotten > the same result using my own- 155 SR wins, but I had more confidence in the > results using Jason's set-up. > > > >> On Mar 23, 2014, at 9:38 AM, Tony Palmero <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > >> Thanks, Mr. Izzo. THAT's what I was askin'. It seems like maybe I DO > >> understand. I appreciate that. > >> > >> Tony > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Tony Palmero <[email protected] > >wrote: > >> > >>> Yo, Bradley! > >>> > >>> Thanks for the explaination. But to be honest, I didn't understand > none > >>> of that. What I think I heard you say was that sprinklers at the > ceiling > >>> is enuff to make the heads work right. Am i correct over here? > >>> > >>> I don't know how you have the time to design sprinkler systems AND do > >>> tests for sprinklers and jet engines. I can barely make it in time > to > >>> the elementary school to run the lights after puttin away the threadin > >>> machine. Do yous guys need any fitters? I think I could really learn > alot > >>> about something that has nothing to do with sprinklers over there and > that > >>> would be a nice break. ya know? > >>> > >>> sencerely, > >>> > >>> Anthony S. Palmero > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 8:56 AM, Brad Casterline < > [email protected]>wrote: > >>> > >>>> Tony, > >>>> > >>>> I spent some time figuring out why heat collectors did not work and > came > >>>> up with: > >>>> They are installed horizontal, parallel to the floor and 'ceiling > jet'. > >>>> If they were vertical, like a 'baffle', with the head ~6" below and > from > >>>> center they would work, but we would call them heat director. > >>>> For years I imagined the heat rising, banking straight down off the > roof > >>>> deck and when it finally filled the 12" distance to the head it would > pop. > >>>> But if that is what is happening, the emergency is not in that area-- > the > >>>> emergency is where the ~200 degree air is moving horizontally across > the > >>>> head at 5 to 10 feet/second. We would need 2 'baffles', in a "+" > shape, to > >>>> account for the direction the jet is moving when it gets to the > >>>> head/director. > >>>> > >>>> Brad Casterline, SET > >>>> > >>>> Warning: I am a good example of the 'bad' posters Greg mentioned. > >>>> > >>>>>> On Mar 23, 2014, at 7:44 AM, Greg McGahan <[email protected]> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Tony, > >>>>> > >>>>> He was being sincere and you are incorrect. The "heat collectors" can > >>>> delay > >>>>> the operation of a head from what I have learned not only on the > forum > >>>> but > >>>>> also from other sources...The fire marshall is falling for one of the > >>>>> classic blunders.....the other being never start a land war in > >>>> Asia...(that > >>>>> was a joke) > >>>>> > >>>>> I am silent much of the time on this forum but you quickly get a feel > >>>> for > >>>>> who knows what they are talking about and who is just talking. I > tend to > >>>>> listen to to RG. You seem sincere and curious, good for you. I would > be > >>>>> careful who I listen to. > >>>>> > >>>>> Just my two cents worth...... > >>>>> Greg > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Greg McGahan > >>>>> Living Water Fire Protection, LLC <http://www.livingwaterfp.com> > >>>>> 1160 McKenzie Road > >>>>> Cantonment, FL 32533 > >>>>> 850-937-1850 > >>>>> fax 850-937-1852 > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 11:23 PM, Tony Palmero < > [email protected] > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Dr. Greenman, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I had a fire marshal make me put dem on sprinklers before. Since I > >>>> don't > >>>>>> really know much about fire dynamicks (isn't dat what yous guys call > >>>> it?), > >>>>>> I always thought the pie pans made hot air go to the head faster. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Tony Palmero > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 11:04 PM, Steve Leyton > >>>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Okay, giant oops there. Inside joke, meant to send that to Ron > only. > >>>> Memo > >>>>>>> to self - don't use phone for email. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -------- Original message -------- > >>>>>>> From: Steve Leyton <[email protected]> > >>>>>>> Date:03/22/2014 9:01 PM (GMT-08:00) > >>>>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>>>> Subject: RE: Quick response > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> What kinda fuckstick dreamed THAT shit up? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -------- Original message -------- > >>>>>>> From: "rongreenman ." <[email protected]> > >>>>>>> Date:03/22/2014 8:57 PM (GMT-08:00) > >>>>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Quick response > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I was thinking Tony. So-called "heat collectors" have been known to > >>>> slow > >>>>>>> the response of sprinkler heads by forming an aerodynamic phenomena > >>>>>> whereby > >>>>>>> the head is actually protected from the heat reaching it due to a > >>>> pocket > >>>>>>> stagnant air that surrounds the head and deflects much of the > >>>> convected > >>>>>>> heat. perhaps putting pie pans over the heads would help. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 8:00 PM, Tony Palmero < > >>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thanks, Dr Greenman! > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Yes, the lights are hot. Sitting in that stupid chair makes me > >>>> sweat a > >>>>>>>> lot. I have to be careful not to drip on the other parents below. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Someday it would be great to try running lights in Hollywood! But > >>>> for > >>>>>>> now, > >>>>>>>> it'll have to be only at Spring Concerts at night and hanging > >>>> sprinkler > >>>>>>>> pipe during the day. Do the Hollywood studios have fitters on the > >>>>>>> payroll? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Tony Palmero > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 9:37 PM, rongreenman . < > >>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> How about an empirical answer. If these lights are similar to > those > >>>>>>> used > >>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>> movie production the answer is yes. Has happened a lot. I was > only > >>>>>>>> involved > >>>>>>>>> with one movie, but I was involved because they decided they > needed > >>>> a > >>>>>>>>> sprinkler guy because they'd had several discharges in the past > and > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>> building they were using for a sound stage had relatively (about > >>>> 30') > >>>>>>>>> ceilings. They initially hired me to turn the system off every > day > >>>> at > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>> beginning of work and come back to turn it on at night. Obviously > >>>>>> this > >>>>>>>> was > >>>>>>>>> not a solution, which the lead production guy understood and > took my > >>>>>>>> advice > >>>>>>>>> to change the heads to high temps while they were using the > building > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>> return and make them standard temp when filming was done. > Numbers? > >>>>>>> Don't > >>>>>>>>> know. The ones you use must be hot or you wouldn't be asking. I'd > >>>>>> talk > >>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>> the maintenance guys from the school and ask if they've ever > had a > >>>>>>>>> problem, and if so, how they've solved it. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 4:38 PM, Fire Protection Services < > >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Yes Brad I will > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 6:22 PM, Brad Casterline < > >>>>>>>> [email protected]> > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> True Jamie and Tony that's why I said I am wrong. I tend to > >>>>>>>> over-think > >>>>>>>>>> things. Something to consider though is it is not just QR you > have > >>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>> worry > >>>>>>>>>> about- i would love to do some actual tests but I believe a 155 > SR > >>>>>>>> would > >>>>>>>>>> activate quicker than a 200 QR, under the same conditions. > Chris, > >>>>>>> could > >>>>>>>>> ask > >>>>>>>>>> your instructor about that? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 5:55 PM, Jamie Seidl < > [email protected] > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> There are rules for heat sources, ie 250w lights, sky lights > >>>>>>> ect... > >>>>>>>>> Sun > >>>>>>>>>> light exposure requires an increase in temperature just as > >>>>>> proximity > >>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>> hear sources. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 6:52 PM, Tony Palmero < > >>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Brad, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> WTF? What does a skylight have to do with it if the light > >>>>>> would > >>>>>>>> have > >>>>>>>>>> to be > >>>>>>>>>>>>> touching the sprinkler to set it off? > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there a rule in NFPA 13 for this kind of stuff? I just > want > >>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>> get > >>>>>>>>>> pipe > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in the air and do it right. Theoretically speakin'. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tony > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 5:34 PM, Brad Casterline < > >>>>>>>>>> [email protected]>wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> We do have to use higher temp heads in skylights though so I > >>>>>> am > >>>>>>>>> wrong! > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't shine it on the sprinklers or the kids too long at a > >>>>>> time! > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 5:25 PM, Brad Casterline < > >>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the light would have to be almost touching the > >>>>>> element > >>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>> set it > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> off (conduction). Response Time Index is a measure of the > temp > >>>>>>> AND > >>>>>>>>>> velocity > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the air (convection). The energy of the light itself > drops > >>>>>>>> like a > >>>>>>>>>> rock > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (^4) with distance from the source. (the radiative > component). > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course I could be wrong Tony, and often am :). > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 4:50 PM, Tony Palmero < > >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brad, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was wondering if lights could send enough heat to a > >>>>>> element > >>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>> make > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it go > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off. I run the spotlight at school plays at my kid's > school > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>> was > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> just > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinkin' about it. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You guys on the forum are great. I don't think any of > this > >>>>>>>> stuff > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> matters > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to me putting pipe in the air, but it is fascinating. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tony Palmero > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 4:45 PM, Brad Casterline < > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]>wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It depends on how fast the heated air is moving across > it, > >>>>>>>> which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> depends > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on fire size and ceiling height. But this is true for > >>>>>>> standard > >>>>>>>>>> response > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also. May I ask why you ask? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 4:27 PM, Tony Palmero < > >>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How quick is a qwik resp sprinler? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>> Ron Greenman > >>>>>>>>> Instructor > >>>>>>>>> Fire Protection Engineering Technology > >>>>>>>>> Bates Technical College > >>>>>>>>> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > >>>>>>>>> Tacoma, WA 98405 > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> 253.680.7346 > >>>>>>>>> 253.576.9700 (cell) > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Member: > >>>>>>>>> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. > -Francis > >>>>>>>> Bacon, > >>>>>>>>> essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. > >>>>>> Kettering, > >>>>>>>>> inventor and engineer (1876-1958) > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Ron Greenman > >>>>>>> Instructor > >>>>>>> Fire Protection Engineering Technology > >>>>>>> Bates Technical College > >>>>>>> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > >>>>>>> Tacoma, WA 98405 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 253.680.7346 > >>>>>>> 253.576.9700 (cell) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Member: > >>>>>>> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. > -Francis > >>>>>> Bacon, > >>>>>>> essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. > Kettering, > >>>>>>> inventor and engineer (1876-1958) > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>>>> [email protected] > >>>> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>>> [email protected] > >>>> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> > >>>> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
