I can see how they would work for rate-of-rise detectors better than fixed temperature. Maybe Potter-Roemer took Automatic's design and bent something here or poked a hole there or something and got it listed. I do know it was short lived, and rightly so-- except for the short back and triangle sides it was horizontal.
> On Mar 23, 2014, at 3:35 PM, Mike Cabral <[email protected]> wrote: > > The dust pans were made by Automatic Sprinkler Corp of America and were used > in conjunction with Heat Actuated Devices on Supertex systems. An old rate > of rise/fixed temp system that did not need power to operate. Small copper > tube went from the HAD to a Mercery Check . . . through a release control > device which dropped a weight to open the valve. A very remarkable system I > haven't seen any in the wild for some time now. > > I'm not sure if the heat collectors worked however, I was still selling them > back in 1994. > > Mike > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 23, 2014, at 10:34 AM, Brad Casterline <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Sal, I believe years ago, for a very brief time, Potter-Roemer had a listed >> heat collector. I called them Dust Pans. >> Tony, for 30 years I was a designer for contractors and the last 10 I have >> worked for a Consulting Firm. I desperately miss the smell of warm cutting >> oil on smoke breaks out in the shop. Instead of heat collecting around a >> head, picture it moving across a head. >> Cecil, I think I see what you did there. No question or request for more >> details-- I simply thought you would appreciate the results I got from >> modeling my question of myself "which activates faster, a 155 SR or a 200 >> QR? if I used Dr. Floyd's excellent set-up instead of my own. I had gotten >> the same result using my own- 155 SR wins, but I had more confidence in the >> results using Jason's set-up. >> >>> On Mar 23, 2014, at 9:38 AM, Tony Palmero <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks, Mr. Izzo. THAT's what I was askin'. It seems like maybe I DO >>> understand. I appreciate that. >>> >>> Tony >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Tony Palmero >>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>> >>>> Yo, Bradley! >>>> >>>> Thanks for the explaination. But to be honest, I didn't understand none >>>> of that. What I think I heard you say was that sprinklers at the ceiling >>>> is enuff to make the heads work right. Am i correct over here? >>>> >>>> I don't know how you have the time to design sprinkler systems AND do >>>> tests for sprinklers and jet engines. I can barely make it in time to >>>> the elementary school to run the lights after puttin away the threadin >>>> machine. Do yous guys need any fitters? I think I could really learn alot >>>> about something that has nothing to do with sprinklers over there and that >>>> would be a nice break. ya know? >>>> >>>> sencerely, >>>> >>>> Anthony S. Palmero >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 8:56 AM, Brad Casterline >>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>>> >>>>> Tony, >>>>> >>>>> I spent some time figuring out why heat collectors did not work and came >>>>> up with: >>>>> They are installed horizontal, parallel to the floor and 'ceiling jet'. >>>>> If they were vertical, like a 'baffle', with the head ~6" below and from >>>>> center they would work, but we would call them heat director. >>>>> For years I imagined the heat rising, banking straight down off the roof >>>>> deck and when it finally filled the 12" distance to the head it would pop. >>>>> But if that is what is happening, the emergency is not in that area-- the >>>>> emergency is where the ~200 degree air is moving horizontally across the >>>>> head at 5 to 10 feet/second. We would need 2 'baffles', in a "+" shape, to >>>>> account for the direction the jet is moving when it gets to the >>>>> head/director. >>>>> >>>>> Brad Casterline, SET >>>>> >>>>> Warning: I am a good example of the 'bad' posters Greg mentioned. >>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2014, at 7:44 AM, Greg McGahan <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Tony, >>>>>> >>>>>> He was being sincere and you are incorrect. The "heat collectors" can >>>>> delay >>>>>> the operation of a head from what I have learned not only on the forum >>>>> but >>>>>> also from other sources...The fire marshall is falling for one of the >>>>>> classic blunders.....the other being never start a land war in >>>>> Asia...(that >>>>>> was a joke) >>>>>> >>>>>> I am silent much of the time on this forum but you quickly get a feel >>>>> for >>>>>> who knows what they are talking about and who is just talking. I tend to >>>>>> listen to to RG. You seem sincere and curious, good for you. I would be >>>>>> careful who I listen to. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just my two cents worth...... >>>>>> Greg >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Greg McGahan >>>>>> Living Water Fire Protection, LLC <http://www.livingwaterfp.com> >>>>>> 1160 McKenzie Road >>>>>> Cantonment, FL 32533 >>>>>> 850-937-1850 >>>>>> fax 850-937-1852 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 11:23 PM, Tony Palmero <[email protected] >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dr. Greenman, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I had a fire marshal make me put dem on sprinklers before. Since I >>>>> don't >>>>>>> really know much about fire dynamicks (isn't dat what yous guys call >>>>> it?), >>>>>>> I always thought the pie pans made hot air go to the head faster. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tony Palmero >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 11:04 PM, Steve Leyton >>>>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Okay, giant oops there. Inside joke, meant to send that to Ron only. >>>>> Memo >>>>>>>> to self - don't use phone for email. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>>>>> From: Steve Leyton <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> Date:03/22/2014 9:01 PM (GMT-08:00) >>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Quick response >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What kinda fuckstick dreamed THAT shit up? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>>>>> From: "rongreenman ." <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> Date:03/22/2014 8:57 PM (GMT-08:00) >>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Quick response >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was thinking Tony. So-called "heat collectors" have been known to >>>>> slow >>>>>>>> the response of sprinkler heads by forming an aerodynamic phenomena >>>>>>> whereby >>>>>>>> the head is actually protected from the heat reaching it due to a >>>>> pocket >>>>>>>> stagnant air that surrounds the head and deflects much of the >>>>> convected >>>>>>>> heat. perhaps putting pie pans over the heads would help. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 8:00 PM, Tony Palmero < >>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, Dr Greenman! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yes, the lights are hot. Sitting in that stupid chair makes me >>>>> sweat a >>>>>>>>> lot. I have to be careful not to drip on the other parents below. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Someday it would be great to try running lights in Hollywood! But >>>>> for >>>>>>>> now, >>>>>>>>> it'll have to be only at Spring Concerts at night and hanging >>>>> sprinkler >>>>>>>>> pipe during the day. Do the Hollywood studios have fitters on the >>>>>>>> payroll? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Tony Palmero >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 9:37 PM, rongreenman . < >>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> How about an empirical answer. If these lights are similar to those >>>>>>>> used >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> movie production the answer is yes. Has happened a lot. I was only >>>>>>>>> involved >>>>>>>>>> with one movie, but I was involved because they decided they needed >>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> sprinkler guy because they'd had several discharges in the past and >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> building they were using for a sound stage had relatively (about >>>>> 30') >>>>>>>>>> ceilings. They initially hired me to turn the system off every day >>>>> at >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> beginning of work and come back to turn it on at night. Obviously >>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>> not a solution, which the lead production guy understood and took my >>>>>>>>> advice >>>>>>>>>> to change the heads to high temps while they were using the building >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> return and make them standard temp when filming was done. Numbers? >>>>>>>> Don't >>>>>>>>>> know. The ones you use must be hot or you wouldn't be asking. I'd >>>>>>> talk >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> the maintenance guys from the school and ask if they've ever had a >>>>>>>>>> problem, and if so, how they've solved it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 4:38 PM, Fire Protection Services < >>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Yes Brad I will >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 6:22 PM, Brad Casterline < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> True Jamie and Tony that's why I said I am wrong. I tend to >>>>>>>>> over-think >>>>>>>>>>> things. Something to consider though is it is not just QR you have >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> worry >>>>>>>>>>> about- i would love to do some actual tests but I believe a 155 SR >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> activate quicker than a 200 QR, under the same conditions. Chris, >>>>>>>> could >>>>>>>>>> ask >>>>>>>>>>> your instructor about that? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 5:55 PM, Jamie Seidl <[email protected] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There are rules for heat sources, ie 250w lights, sky lights >>>>>>>> ect... >>>>>>>>>> Sun >>>>>>>>>>> light exposure requires an increase in temperature just as >>>>>>> proximity >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> hear sources. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 6:52 PM, Tony Palmero < >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brad, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WTF? What does a skylight have to do with it if the light >>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>> to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> touching the sprinkler to set it off? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there a rule in NFPA 13 for this kind of stuff? I just want >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>> pipe >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the air and do it right. Theoretically speakin'. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tony >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 5:34 PM, Brad Casterline < >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We do have to use higher temp heads in skylights though so I >>>>>>> am >>>>>>>>>> wrong! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't shine it on the sprinklers or the kids too long at a >>>>>>> time! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 5:25 PM, Brad Casterline < >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the light would have to be almost touching the >>>>>>> element >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> set it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off (conduction). Response Time Index is a measure of the temp >>>>>>>> AND >>>>>>>>>>> velocity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the air (convection). The energy of the light itself drops >>>>>>>>> like a >>>>>>>>>>> rock >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (^4) with distance from the source. (the radiative component). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course I could be wrong Tony, and often am :). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 4:50 PM, Tony Palmero < >>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brad, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was wondering if lights could send enough heat to a >>>>>>> element >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it go >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off. I run the spotlight at school plays at my kid's school >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinkin' about it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You guys on the forum are great. I don't think any of this >>>>>>>>> stuff >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matters >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to me putting pipe in the air, but it is fascinating. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tony Palmero >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 4:45 PM, Brad Casterline < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It depends on how fast the heated air is moving across it, >>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> depends >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on fire size and ceiling height. But this is true for >>>>>>>> standard >>>>>>>>>>> response >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also. May I ask why you ask? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 4:27 PM, Tony Palmero < >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How quick is a qwik resp sprinler? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Ron Greenman >>>>>>>>>> Instructor >>>>>>>>>> Fire Protection Engineering Technology >>>>>>>>>> Bates Technical College >>>>>>>>>> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. >>>>>>>>>> Tacoma, WA 98405 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 253.680.7346 >>>>>>>>>> 253.576.9700 (cell) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Member: >>>>>>>>>> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis >>>>>>>>> Bacon, >>>>>>>>>> essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. >>>>>>> Kettering, >>>>>>>>>> inventor and engineer (1876-1958) >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Ron Greenman >>>>>>>> Instructor >>>>>>>> Fire Protection Engineering Technology >>>>>>>> Bates Technical College >>>>>>>> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. >>>>>>>> Tacoma, WA 98405 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 253.680.7346 >>>>>>>> 253.576.9700 (cell) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Member: >>>>>>>> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis >>>>>>> Bacon, >>>>>>>> essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, >>>>>>>> inventor and engineer (1876-1958) >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
