your cue Ed... talk to us...
> On Jul 7, 2014, at 9:12 AM, "rongreenman ." <[email protected]> wrote: > > Craig, > > Ed Vining has a good story about deluge and pre-action systems and how > contractors leap for dollars where wiser men fear to tread. > > > On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 7:06 AM, Brad Casterline <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Craig, when I first read this post I thought "HUH, PREACTION WAREHOUSE?" >> No experience with that. I think the details of a combined DRY and >> PREACTION system are still in 13. Maybe ~25 years ago that is what this >> was, when computers cost 20k. >> >>> On Jul 7, 2014, at 7:45 AM, Brad Casterline <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>> >>> I guess you could start a fire, and follow the sequence of events, >> taking measurements on this and that here and there. >>> >>>> On Jul 7, 2014, at 7:26 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> I have provided all of the information that I have. The functionality >> of the system as a whole is questionable. Without contractor shop drawings >> there is no way to surmise the type of system or how it was actually >> designed other than by what you can physically see. There is a list of >> "why did they do that", "how did they come up with that number" and other >> various design and installation questions that just don't make good sense. >>>> >>>> So thanks for all the input but that's about all we've got. >>>> >>>> Craig L. Prahl >>>> Fire Protection Group Lead >>>> CH2MHILL >>>> Lockwood Greene >>>> 1500 International Drive >>>> Spartanburg, SC 29303 >>>> Direct - 864.599.4102 >>>> Fax - 864.599.8439 >>>> CH2MHILL Extension 74102 >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>>> On Jul 3, 2014, at 6:52 PM, Mike Cabral <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Supervisory air is a necessary component for single interlock. No >> supervisory air and it's not even a dry pipe system. We are not getting >> required information regarding this installation. >>>>> >>>>> This might be a Supertex system using HAD's. From what I recall from >> the thread there was no releasing panel or no access to the panel very >> strange, now no supervisory air? What's the compressor for? >>>>> >>>>> A photo of the riser would be helpful. >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> Happy Holliday >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 3, 2014, at 5:01 PM, Kenneth Berman <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> If there's no pneumatic supervision of piping, and there's been no >>>>>> mention of a pilot line, it sounds like a single interlock. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:32 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OK, there we are. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One other thing I just discovered, there is no pneumatic >>>>>>> supervision of the piping. The only air compressor served a dry >> standpipe system. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Craig L. Prahl >>>>>>> Fire Protection Group Lead >>>>>>> CH2MHILL >>>>>>> Lockwood Greene >>>>>>> 1500 International Drive >>>>>>> Spartanburg, SC 29303 >>>>>>> Direct - 864.599.4102 >>>>>>> Fax - 864.599.8439 >>>>>>> CH2MHILL Extension 74102 >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >>>>>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Johnson, Duane (NIH/OD/ORS) [C] >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 11:13 AM >>>>>>> To: '[email protected]' >>>>>>> Subject: RE: Identification of preaction system types >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1999 has 30% increase for dry and preaction systems protecting rack >>>>>>> storage 7-4.1.5.2 and 7-4.1.5.3. There is a bar next to the >> paragraphs. >>>>>>> There is also an exception that says the requirement does not apply >>>>>>> to preaction systems where it can be demonstrated that the detection >>>>>>> system activates the system as quickly as a wet pipe system. Sounds >>>>>>> like the beginning of a new requirement... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Duane Johnson, PE >>>>>>> Program Manager >>>>>>> Division of the Fire Marshal (Contractor) Office of Research >>>>>>> Services National Institutes of Health >>>>>>> 301-496-0487 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Protecting Science - One Sprinkler at a Time" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 11:07 AM >>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>> Subject: RE: Identification of preaction system types >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's what I'm trying to track down. When did that provision go >> away? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know today's requirements, just need verification of design >>>>>>> requirements or allowances in 1982. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have a copy of NFPA 231 from 1978 but it doesn't address NFPA 13 >>>>>>> issues nor speak of preaction systems. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Craig L. Prahl >>>>>>> Fire Protection Group Lead >>>>>>> CH2MHILL >>>>>>> Lockwood Greene >>>>>>> 1500 International Drive >>>>>>> Spartanburg, SC 29303 >>>>>>> Direct - 864.599.4102 >>>>>>> Fax - 864.599.8439 >>>>>>> CH2MHILL Extension 74102 >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >>>>>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of John >>>>>>> Denhardt >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 10:56 AM >>>>>>> To: '[email protected]' >>>>>>> Subject: RE: Identification of preaction system types >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is no increase in remote area on single interlocked back in >> the day. >>>>>>> Several editions ago (??) that was deleted for storage. Now there >>>>>>> is a 30% increase in remote area for all pre-action systems in >> storage. >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John August Denhardt, P.E., FSFPE >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Strickland Fire Protection Incorporated >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 5113 Berwyn Road >>>>>>> >>>>>>> College Park, Maryland 20740 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Office Telephone Number: 301-474-1136 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mobile Telephone Number: 301-343-1457 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> FIRE SPRINKLERS SAVE LIVES - Can you live without them? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >>>>>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 10:55 AM >>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>> Subject: RE: Identification of preaction system types >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for all the input. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't have access to the releasing panel. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The hydraulic placard gives no indication of the system type. >>>>>>> Design data is 0.26/4000 but that lines up exactly with the 1978 >>>>>>> NFPA 231 for Class IV commodities so no real help there. It doesn't >>>>>>> appear they provided for the 30% increase for dry system. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I thought I had seen at some point in time within NFPA 13 that one >>>>>>> of the preaction system types (I believe it was single interlock) >>>>>>> were considered the same as wet due to water filling pipes before >>>>>>> sprinkler operation and therefore did not require the 30% increase >>>>>>> in design area. I can't seem to find that verbiage in past or >>>>>>> present NFPA 13 Standards now that I'm looking for it. Any clues or >> was I mislead? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have Engineer's drawings from 1982, no contractor shop drawings or >>>>>>> calculations. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are no data sheets. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are no test reports. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, I love impossible >>>>>>> challenges.......................................to >>>>>>> a point. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Craig L. Prahl >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >>>>>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Izzo, >>>>>>> Salvatore >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 10:25 AM >>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>> Subject: RE: Identification of preaction system types >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If the warehouse is unheated, that is, if there is a chance of >>>>>>> freezing, it is my opinion that it would be doubtfulto find a single >>>>>>> interlock preaction system; therefore, it would likely be a double >>>>>>> interlock. You could look at the design area on the hydraulic >>>>>>> placard ( if there is one) as one way of making the determination. >>>>>>> Take a look at the trim, and if you do not see a pneumatic actuator >>>>>>> in addition to the solenoid, it is likely that it is an >>>>>>> electric-electric type double interlock system. This can be >>>>>>> verified by looking at the releasing panel input zones and >>>>>>> determining if the low air pressure switch is wired into an alarm >>>>>>> zone rather than a low air supervisory zone. Of course, you can >> verify the manufacturer and compare to the data sheets as well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Salvatore J. Izzo III, P.E. SFPE >>>>>>> Manager - QA/QC Operations >>>>>>> Insurance Services Office >>>>>>> Verisk Commercial Real Estate >>>>>>> 545 Washington Blvd. >>>>>>> Jersey City, NJ 07310 - 1686 >>>>>>> t 201.469.2486 >>>>>>> f 201.748.1942 >>>>>>> c 732.533.7927 >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> www.verisk.com/insurance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Verisk Insurance Solutions ● ISO | AIR Worldwide | Xactware >>>>>>> -----Original >>>>>>> Message----- >>>>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >>>>>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 9:13 AM >>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>> Subject: RE: Identification of preaction system types >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ok, So what would be the tell-tale difference? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Craig L. Prahl >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >>>>>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Johnson, Duane (NIH/OD/ORS) [C] >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 9:12 AM >>>>>>> To: '[email protected]' >>>>>>> Subject: RE: Identification of preaction system types >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Nope. You have to look at the trim on the preaction valve. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Duane Johnson, PE >>>>>>> Program Manager >>>>>>> Division of the Fire Marshal (Contractor) Office of Research >>>>>>> Services National Institutes of Health >>>>>>> 301-496-0487 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Protecting Science - One Sprinkler at a Time" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 9:09 AM >>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>> Subject: Identification of preaction system types >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Can you identify the type of preaction system installed just by >>>>>>> looking at the system riser? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have a warehouse, unheated, Preaction system of unknown type. >>>>>>> There are heat detectors at the roof deck and there is a small air >> compressor. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's all I've got to go on. I can make assumptions all day long, >>>>>>> but no assumption is better than an incorrect assumption at this >> point. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Craig L. Prahl >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin >>>>>>> kler.org _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin >>>>>>> kler.org _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin >>>>>>> kler.org _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin >>>>>>> kler.org _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin >>>>>>> kler.org >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >>>>>> ler.org >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl >>>>> er.org >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >> > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology > Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > [email protected] > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, > essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > > A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, > inventor and engineer (1876-1958) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
