He told me over lunch many years ago. I forgot that he later to the story on the Forum. Very funny stuff.
On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 9:24 AM, Brad Casterline <[email protected]> wrote: > Search 'Ed vining deluge' Craig, you'll get there. > Very funny stuff! > > > On Jul 7, 2014, at 11:08 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > There's nothing at the link. > > > > Craig L. Prahl > > Fire Protection Group Lead > > CH2MHILL > > Lockwood Greene > > 1500 International Drive > > Spartanburg, SC 29303 > > Direct - 864.599.4102 > > Fax - 864.599.8439 > > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > > [email protected] > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad > Casterline > > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 12:02 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: Identification of preaction system types > > > > > https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]&q=subject:%22Re%3A+Gridded+pre%26%2345%3Baction+and+dry%22 > > > > Well I got impatient so I searched the archives for Ed vining deluge > > > >> On Jul 7, 2014, at 10:02 AM, Brad Casterline <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > >> your cue Ed... talk to us... > >> > >>> On Jul 7, 2014, at 9:12 AM, "rongreenman ." <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>> > >>> Craig, > >>> > >>> Ed Vining has a good story about deluge and pre-action systems and > >>> how contractors leap for dollars where wiser men fear to tread. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 7:06 AM, Brad Casterline > >>> <[email protected]> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Craig, when I first read this post I thought "HUH, PREACTION > WAREHOUSE?" > >>>> No experience with that. I think the details of a combined DRY and > >>>> PREACTION system are still in 13. Maybe ~25 years ago that is what > >>>> this was, when computers cost 20k. > >>>> > >>>>>> On Jul 7, 2014, at 7:45 AM, Brad Casterline > >>>>>> <[email protected]> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I guess you could start a fire, and follow the sequence of events, > >>>> taking measurements on this and that here and there. > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Jul 7, 2014, at 7:26 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I have provided all of the information that I have. The > >>>>>> functionality > >>>> of the system as a whole is questionable. Without contractor shop > >>>> drawings there is no way to surmise the type of system or how it was > actually > >>>> designed other than by what you can physically see. There is a list > of > >>>> "why did they do that", "how did they come up with that number" and > >>>> other various design and installation questions that just don't make > good sense. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So thanks for all the input but that's about all we've got. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Craig L. Prahl > >>>>>> Fire Protection Group Lead > >>>>>> CH2MHILL > >>>>>> Lockwood Greene > >>>>>> 1500 International Drive > >>>>>> Spartanburg, SC 29303 > >>>>>> Direct - 864.599.4102 > >>>>>> Fax - 864.599.8439 > >>>>>> CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > >>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Jul 3, 2014, at 6:52 PM, Mike Cabral > >>>>>>> <[email protected]> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Supervisory air is a necessary component for single interlock. No > >>>> supervisory air and it's not even a dry pipe system. We are not > >>>> getting required information regarding this installation. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> This might be a Supertex system using HAD's. From what I recall > >>>>>>> from > >>>> the thread there was no releasing panel or no access to the panel > >>>> very strange, now no supervisory air? What's the compressor for? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> A photo of the riser would be helpful. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Mike > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Happy Holliday > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Jul 3, 2014, at 5:01 PM, Kenneth Berman > >>>>>>>> <[email protected]> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> If there's no pneumatic supervision of piping, and there's been > >>>>>>>> no mention of a pilot line, it sounds like a single interlock. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:32 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> OK, there we are. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> One other thing I just discovered, there is no pneumatic > >>>>>>>>> supervision of the piping. The only air compressor served a > >>>>>>>>> dry > >>>> standpipe system. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Craig L. Prahl > >>>>>>>>> Fire Protection Group Lead > >>>>>>>>> CH2MHILL > >>>>>>>>> Lockwood Greene > >>>>>>>>> 1500 International Drive > >>>>>>>>> Spartanburg, SC 29303 > >>>>>>>>> Direct - 864.599.4102 > >>>>>>>>> Fax - 864.599.8439 > >>>>>>>>> CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > >>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > >>>>>>>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of > >>>>>>>>> Johnson, Duane (NIH/OD/ORS) [C] > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 11:13 AM > >>>>>>>>> To: '[email protected]' > >>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Identification of preaction system types > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> 1999 has 30% increase for dry and preaction systems protecting > >>>>>>>>> rack storage 7-4.1.5.2 and 7-4.1.5.3. There is a bar next to > >>>>>>>>> the > >>>> paragraphs. > >>>>>>>>> There is also an exception that says the requirement does not > >>>>>>>>> apply to preaction systems where it can be demonstrated that > >>>>>>>>> the detection system activates the system as quickly as a wet > >>>>>>>>> pipe system. Sounds like the beginning of a new requirement... > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Duane Johnson, PE > >>>>>>>>> Program Manager > >>>>>>>>> Division of the Fire Marshal (Contractor) Office of Research > >>>>>>>>> Services National Institutes of Health > >>>>>>>>> 301-496-0487 > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> "Protecting Science - One Sprinkler at a Time" > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 11:07 AM > >>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Identification of preaction system types > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> That's what I'm trying to track down. When did that provision > >>>>>>>>> go > >>>> away? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I know today's requirements, just need verification of design > >>>>>>>>> requirements or allowances in 1982. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I have a copy of NFPA 231 from 1978 but it doesn't address NFPA > >>>>>>>>> 13 issues nor speak of preaction systems. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Craig L. Prahl > >>>>>>>>> Fire Protection Group Lead > >>>>>>>>> CH2MHILL > >>>>>>>>> Lockwood Greene > >>>>>>>>> 1500 International Drive > >>>>>>>>> Spartanburg, SC 29303 > >>>>>>>>> Direct - 864.599.4102 > >>>>>>>>> Fax - 864.599.8439 > >>>>>>>>> CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > >>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > >>>>>>>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of > >>>>>>>>> John Denhardt > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 10:56 AM > >>>>>>>>> To: '[email protected]' > >>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Identification of preaction system types > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> There is no increase in remote area on single interlocked back > >>>>>>>>> in > >>>> the day. > >>>>>>>>> Several editions ago (??) that was deleted for storage. Now > >>>>>>>>> there is a 30% increase in remote area for all pre-action > >>>>>>>>> systems in > >>>> storage. > >>>>>>>>> Thanks, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> John > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> John August Denhardt, P.E., FSFPE > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Strickland Fire Protection Incorporated > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> 5113 Berwyn Road > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> College Park, Maryland 20740 > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Office Telephone Number: 301-474-1136 > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Mobile Telephone Number: 301-343-1457 > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> FIRE SPRINKLERS SAVE LIVES - Can you live without them? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > >>>>>>>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of > >>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 10:55 AM > >>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Identification of preaction system types > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Thanks for all the input. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I don't have access to the releasing panel. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> The hydraulic placard gives no indication of the system type. > >>>>>>>>> Design data is 0.26/4000 but that lines up exactly with the > >>>>>>>>> 1978 NFPA 231 for Class IV commodities so no real help there. > >>>>>>>>> It doesn't appear they provided for the 30% increase for dry > system. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I thought I had seen at some point in time within NFPA 13 that > >>>>>>>>> one of the preaction system types (I believe it was single > >>>>>>>>> interlock) were considered the same as wet due to water filling > >>>>>>>>> pipes before sprinkler operation and therefore did not require > >>>>>>>>> the 30% increase in design area. I can't seem to find that > >>>>>>>>> verbiage in past or present NFPA 13 Standards now that I'm > >>>>>>>>> looking for it. Any clues or > >>>> was I mislead? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I have Engineer's drawings from 1982, no contractor shop > >>>>>>>>> drawings or calculations. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> There are no data sheets. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> There are no test reports. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Yes, I love impossible > >>>>>>>>> challenges.......................................to > >>>>>>>>> a point. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Craig L. Prahl > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > >>>>>>>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of > >>>>>>>>> Izzo, Salvatore > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 10:25 AM > >>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Identification of preaction system types > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> If the warehouse is unheated, that is, if there is a chance of > >>>>>>>>> freezing, it is my opinion that it would be doubtfulto find a > >>>>>>>>> single interlock preaction system; therefore, it would likely > >>>>>>>>> be a double interlock. You could look at the design area on > >>>>>>>>> the hydraulic placard ( if there is one) as one way of making > the determination. > >>>>>>>>> Take a look at the trim, and if you do not see a pneumatic > >>>>>>>>> actuator in addition to the solenoid, it is likely that it is > >>>>>>>>> an electric-electric type double interlock system. This can be > >>>>>>>>> verified by looking at the releasing panel input zones and > >>>>>>>>> determining if the low air pressure switch is wired into an > >>>>>>>>> alarm zone rather than a low air supervisory zone. Of course, > >>>>>>>>> you can > >>>> verify the manufacturer and compare to the data sheets as well. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Salvatore J. Izzo III, P.E. SFPE Manager - QA/QC Operations > >>>>>>>>> Insurance Services Office Verisk Commercial Real Estate > >>>>>>>>> 545 Washington Blvd. > >>>>>>>>> Jersey City, NJ 07310 - 1686 > >>>>>>>>> t 201.469.2486 > >>>>>>>>> f 201.748.1942 > >>>>>>>>> c 732.533.7927 > >>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>>>> www.verisk.com/insurance > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Verisk Insurance Solutions ● ISO | AIR Worldwide | Xactware > >>>>>>>>> -----Original > >>>>>>>>> Message----- > >>>>>>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > >>>>>>>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of > >>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 9:13 AM > >>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Identification of preaction system types > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Ok, So what would be the tell-tale difference? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Craig L. Prahl > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > >>>>>>>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of > >>>>>>>>> Johnson, Duane (NIH/OD/ORS) [C] > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 9:12 AM > >>>>>>>>> To: '[email protected]' > >>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Identification of preaction system types > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Nope. You have to look at the trim on the preaction valve. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Duane Johnson, PE > >>>>>>>>> Program Manager > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, inventor and engineer (1876-1958) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
