Search 'Ed vining deluge' Craig, you'll get there. Very funny stuff!
> On Jul 7, 2014, at 11:08 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > There's nothing at the link. > > Craig L. Prahl > Fire Protection Group Lead > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > Spartanburg, SC 29303 > Direct - 864.599.4102 > Fax - 864.599.8439 > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > [email protected] > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of Brad Casterline > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 12:02 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Identification of preaction system types > > https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]&q=subject:%22Re%3A+Gridded+pre%26%2345%3Baction+and+dry%22 > > Well I got impatient so I searched the archives for Ed vining deluge > >> On Jul 7, 2014, at 10:02 AM, Brad Casterline <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> your cue Ed... talk to us... >> >>> On Jul 7, 2014, at 9:12 AM, "rongreenman ." <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Craig, >>> >>> Ed Vining has a good story about deluge and pre-action systems and >>> how contractors leap for dollars where wiser men fear to tread. >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 7:06 AM, Brad Casterline >>> <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Craig, when I first read this post I thought "HUH, PREACTION WAREHOUSE?" >>>> No experience with that. I think the details of a combined DRY and >>>> PREACTION system are still in 13. Maybe ~25 years ago that is what >>>> this was, when computers cost 20k. >>>> >>>>>> On Jul 7, 2014, at 7:45 AM, Brad Casterline >>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I guess you could start a fire, and follow the sequence of events, >>>> taking measurements on this and that here and there. >>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 7, 2014, at 7:26 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I have provided all of the information that I have. The >>>>>> functionality >>>> of the system as a whole is questionable. Without contractor shop >>>> drawings there is no way to surmise the type of system or how it was >>>> actually >>>> designed other than by what you can physically see. There is a list of >>>> "why did they do that", "how did they come up with that number" and >>>> other various design and installation questions that just don't make good >>>> sense. >>>>>> >>>>>> So thanks for all the input but that's about all we've got. >>>>>> >>>>>> Craig L. Prahl >>>>>> Fire Protection Group Lead >>>>>> CH2MHILL >>>>>> Lockwood Greene >>>>>> 1500 International Drive >>>>>> Spartanburg, SC 29303 >>>>>> Direct - 864.599.4102 >>>>>> Fax - 864.599.8439 >>>>>> CH2MHILL Extension 74102 >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jul 3, 2014, at 6:52 PM, Mike Cabral >>>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Supervisory air is a necessary component for single interlock. No >>>> supervisory air and it's not even a dry pipe system. We are not >>>> getting required information regarding this installation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This might be a Supertex system using HAD's. From what I recall >>>>>>> from >>>> the thread there was no releasing panel or no access to the panel >>>> very strange, now no supervisory air? What's the compressor for? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A photo of the riser would be helpful. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Happy Holliday >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jul 3, 2014, at 5:01 PM, Kenneth Berman >>>>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If there's no pneumatic supervision of piping, and there's been >>>>>>>> no mention of a pilot line, it sounds like a single interlock. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:32 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> OK, there we are. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> One other thing I just discovered, there is no pneumatic >>>>>>>>> supervision of the piping. The only air compressor served a >>>>>>>>> dry >>>> standpipe system. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Craig L. Prahl >>>>>>>>> Fire Protection Group Lead >>>>>>>>> CH2MHILL >>>>>>>>> Lockwood Greene >>>>>>>>> 1500 International Drive >>>>>>>>> Spartanburg, SC 29303 >>>>>>>>> Direct - 864.599.4102 >>>>>>>>> Fax - 864.599.8439 >>>>>>>>> CH2MHILL Extension 74102 >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >>>>>>>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>> Johnson, Duane (NIH/OD/ORS) [C] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 11:13 AM >>>>>>>>> To: '[email protected]' >>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Identification of preaction system types >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 1999 has 30% increase for dry and preaction systems protecting >>>>>>>>> rack storage 7-4.1.5.2 and 7-4.1.5.3. There is a bar next to >>>>>>>>> the >>>> paragraphs. >>>>>>>>> There is also an exception that says the requirement does not >>>>>>>>> apply to preaction systems where it can be demonstrated that >>>>>>>>> the detection system activates the system as quickly as a wet >>>>>>>>> pipe system. Sounds like the beginning of a new requirement... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Duane Johnson, PE >>>>>>>>> Program Manager >>>>>>>>> Division of the Fire Marshal (Contractor) Office of Research >>>>>>>>> Services National Institutes of Health >>>>>>>>> 301-496-0487 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "Protecting Science - One Sprinkler at a Time" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 11:07 AM >>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Identification of preaction system types >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That's what I'm trying to track down. When did that provision >>>>>>>>> go >>>> away? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I know today's requirements, just need verification of design >>>>>>>>> requirements or allowances in 1982. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have a copy of NFPA 231 from 1978 but it doesn't address NFPA >>>>>>>>> 13 issues nor speak of preaction systems. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Craig L. Prahl >>>>>>>>> Fire Protection Group Lead >>>>>>>>> CH2MHILL >>>>>>>>> Lockwood Greene >>>>>>>>> 1500 International Drive >>>>>>>>> Spartanburg, SC 29303 >>>>>>>>> Direct - 864.599.4102 >>>>>>>>> Fax - 864.599.8439 >>>>>>>>> CH2MHILL Extension 74102 >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >>>>>>>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>> John Denhardt >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 10:56 AM >>>>>>>>> To: '[email protected]' >>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Identification of preaction system types >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There is no increase in remote area on single interlocked back >>>>>>>>> in >>>> the day. >>>>>>>>> Several editions ago (??) that was deleted for storage. Now >>>>>>>>> there is a 30% increase in remote area for all pre-action >>>>>>>>> systems in >>>> storage. >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> John >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> John August Denhardt, P.E., FSFPE >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Strickland Fire Protection Incorporated >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 5113 Berwyn Road >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> College Park, Maryland 20740 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Office Telephone Number: 301-474-1136 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mobile Telephone Number: 301-343-1457 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> FIRE SPRINKLERS SAVE LIVES - Can you live without them? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >>>>>>>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 10:55 AM >>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Identification of preaction system types >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for all the input. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I don't have access to the releasing panel. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The hydraulic placard gives no indication of the system type. >>>>>>>>> Design data is 0.26/4000 but that lines up exactly with the >>>>>>>>> 1978 NFPA 231 for Class IV commodities so no real help there. >>>>>>>>> It doesn't appear they provided for the 30% increase for dry system. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I thought I had seen at some point in time within NFPA 13 that >>>>>>>>> one of the preaction system types (I believe it was single >>>>>>>>> interlock) were considered the same as wet due to water filling >>>>>>>>> pipes before sprinkler operation and therefore did not require >>>>>>>>> the 30% increase in design area. I can't seem to find that >>>>>>>>> verbiage in past or present NFPA 13 Standards now that I'm >>>>>>>>> looking for it. Any clues or >>>> was I mislead? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have Engineer's drawings from 1982, no contractor shop >>>>>>>>> drawings or calculations. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There are no data sheets. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There are no test reports. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yes, I love impossible >>>>>>>>> challenges.......................................to >>>>>>>>> a point. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Craig L. Prahl >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >>>>>>>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>> Izzo, Salvatore >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 10:25 AM >>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Identification of preaction system types >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If the warehouse is unheated, that is, if there is a chance of >>>>>>>>> freezing, it is my opinion that it would be doubtfulto find a >>>>>>>>> single interlock preaction system; therefore, it would likely >>>>>>>>> be a double interlock. You could look at the design area on >>>>>>>>> the hydraulic placard ( if there is one) as one way of making the >>>>>>>>> determination. >>>>>>>>> Take a look at the trim, and if you do not see a pneumatic >>>>>>>>> actuator in addition to the solenoid, it is likely that it is >>>>>>>>> an electric-electric type double interlock system. This can be >>>>>>>>> verified by looking at the releasing panel input zones and >>>>>>>>> determining if the low air pressure switch is wired into an >>>>>>>>> alarm zone rather than a low air supervisory zone. Of course, >>>>>>>>> you can >>>> verify the manufacturer and compare to the data sheets as well. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Salvatore J. Izzo III, P.E. SFPE Manager - QA/QC Operations >>>>>>>>> Insurance Services Office Verisk Commercial Real Estate >>>>>>>>> 545 Washington Blvd. >>>>>>>>> Jersey City, NJ 07310 - 1686 >>>>>>>>> t 201.469.2486 >>>>>>>>> f 201.748.1942 >>>>>>>>> c 732.533.7927 >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> www.verisk.com/insurance >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Verisk Insurance Solutions ● ISO | AIR Worldwide | Xactware >>>>>>>>> -----Original >>>>>>>>> Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >>>>>>>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 9:13 AM >>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Identification of preaction system types >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ok, So what would be the tell-tale difference? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Craig L. Prahl >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >>>>>>>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>> Johnson, Duane (NIH/OD/ORS) [C] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 9:12 AM >>>>>>>>> To: '[email protected]' >>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Identification of preaction system types >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nope. You have to look at the trim on the preaction valve. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Duane Johnson, PE >>>>>>>>> Program Manager _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
