John, to address the sidewall/extra hazard issue, we do install sidewalls in extra hazard occupancies for column protection. So at some point the committee recognizes the sidewall has some benefit in certain circumstances for extra hazard. Maybe this is one of those situations. Also not to forget about the Reliable metal building sidewall listed for ordinary and extra hazard.
On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 1:07 PM, John Denhardt <[email protected]> wrote: > Do not forget it every elevator pit I've been in, there is a sump pump. > > Sprinklers Save > > > On Apr 1, 2015, at 12:04 PM, "[email protected]" < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > If there was some catastrophic release of hydraulic fluid creating a > pool fire situation, water alone on even miscible fuels typically has > little to no immediate suppressing effect on the fire. It controls the > spread, helps reduce temperatures of accumulated combustion products to > prevent flashover and gives some time for the FD to arrive and begin > extinguishing and mop up efforts. Depending on the size of the pool, > materials involved and other conditions, sprinklers can achieve > suppression. There are many variables in this world of ours that can > affect the outcome. > > > > Spread of fire due to the fuel depends on the savvy of the responders. > For most fuel pool fires like what we're talking about you wouldn't use a > straight stream because that would spread the fuel around. Fog to lower > temps and surround and drown. But the attack means and measures has to be > assessed by the responders. > > > > But in a small contained area as in an elevator pit, it's just not the > same as out in an open tank farm dike area. You're just expecting a > raging pool fire in an elevator pit. > > > > > > Craig L. Prahl > > Fire Protection Group Lead > > CH2MHILL > > Lockwood Greene > > 1500 International Drive > > Spartanburg, SC 29303 > > Direct - 864.599.4102 > > Fax - 864.599.8439 > > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > > [email protected] > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Parsley > Consulting > > Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 11:54 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: Bottom of elevator shaft protection > > > > Craig, > > A question that occurs to me, perhaps showing my ignorance, is > whether or not the combustible or flammable hydraulic fluid used in > elevators can be suppressed with water if a fire were to begin? I don't > have any basis for this except an awareness that for some liquids which are > burning I understand that the application of water is not going to suppress > the fire, rather it will spread it. > > Am I headed in the wrong direction here? > > *Ken Wagoner, SET > > *Parsley Consulting*** > > *350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206 > > *Escondido, California 92025 > > *****Phone 760-745-6181* > > Visit our website <http://www.parsleyconsulting.com/> *** On 4/1/2015 > 7:33 AM, [email protected] wrote: > >> You're not trying to protect the space against a full blown hydraulic > fuel fire. One or two sprinklers are not going to cover that, period. > >> > >> What you will encounter is debris that can have some hydraulic residue > so it's a little bit more than just plain paper or other miscellaneous > combustible debris. > >> > >> > >> Craig L. Prahl > >> Fire Protection Group Lead > >> CH2MHILL > >> Lockwood Greene > >> 1500 International Drive > >> Spartanburg, SC 29303 > >> Direct - 864.599.4102 > >> Fax - 864.599.8439 > >> CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > >> [email protected] > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Sprinklerforum > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > >> John Denhardt > >> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 10:19 AM > >> To: '[email protected]' > >> Subject: RE: Bottom of elevator shaft protection > >> > >> Correct, but NFPA 13 states to use a sidewall sprinkler and they are > not allowed for Extra Hazard. Thus, one could assume the committee knew > what is what doing and was stating an ordinary hazard design was > acceptable. The Annex reference being quoted by the AHJ is not enforceable. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Sprinklerforum > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > >> Matthew J Willis > >> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 10:21 AM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: RE: Bottom of elevator shaft protection > >> > >> Especially when you through in, > >> > >> 8.15.5.2 The sprinkler required at the bottom of the elevator hoistway > by 8.15.5.1 shall not be required for enclosed, noncombustible elevator > shafts that do not contain combustible hydraulic fluids. > >> > >> So there is the correlation for "combustible hydraulic fluids" > >> > >> R/ > >> Matt > >> > >> Matthew J. Willis > >> Project Manager > >> Rapid Fire Protection Inc. > >> 1805 Samco Road > >> Rapid City, SD 57702 > >> Office-605.348.2342 > >> Cell-605.391.2733 > >> Fax:-605.348.0108 > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Sprinklerforum > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > >> Matthew J Willis > >> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 8:03 AM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: RE: Bottom of elevator shaft protection > >> > >> Oh, trust me, I am all for it. However when the elevator is hydraulic, > and the AHJ points to that very section, and then the big ram in the > bottom..,which leg do we stand on? > >> > >> R/ > >> Matt > >> > >> Matthew J. Willis > >> Project Manager > >> Rapid Fire Protection Inc. > >> 1805 Samco Road > >> Rapid City, SD 57702 > >> Office-605.348.2342 > >> Cell-605.391.2733 > >> Fax:-605.348.0108 > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Sprinklerforum > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > >> John Denhardt > >> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 7:47 AM > >> To: '[email protected]' > >> Subject: RE: Bottom of elevator shaft protection > >> > >> There are several issues with this approach: > >> - Sidewall sprinklers are only allowed for light or ordinary hazard and > under overhead doors (NFPA 13 - 2013: 8.4.2). > >> - NFPA 13 - 2013: 8.15.5.1 requires sidewall sprinklers for the bottom > of the elevator pit. > >> - NFPA 13 - 2013: A.8.15.5.1 "The sprinklers in the pit are intended > to protect against fires caused by debris, which can accumulate over time. > Ideally, the sprinklers should be located near the side of the pit below > the elevator doors, where most debris accumulates. However, care should be > taken that the sprinkler location does not interfere with the elevator toe > guard, which extends below the face of the door opening." No mention of > combustible hydraulic fluid. > >> > >> Extra Hazard??????? > >> > >> Just thinking out loud! > >> John > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Sprinklerforum > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > >> Matthew J Willis > >> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 9:36 AM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: RE: Bottom of elevator shaft protection > >> > >> I had the 10 in parenthesis, my apologies > >> > >> Also I forgot to add.., OH1 because it is a mechanical room after all. > >> > >> R/ > >> Matt > >> > >> Matthew J. Willis > >> Project Manager > >> Rapid Fire Protection Inc. > >> 1805 Samco Road > >> Rapid City, SD 57702 > >> Office-605.348.2342 > >> Cell-605.391.2733 > >> Fax:-605.348.0108 > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Sprinklerforum > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > >> John Denhardt > >> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 7:28 AM > >> To: '[email protected]' > >> Subject: RE: Bottom of elevator shaft protection > >> > >> What year is your reference? NFPA 13 - 2013? > >> > >> John > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Sprinklerforum > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > >> Matthew J Willis > >> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 9:01 AM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: RE: Bottom of elevator shaft protection > >> > >> Ordinary if not hydraulic. EHI if combustible hydraulic fluid is used. > >> > >> A.5.4.1 (10) > >> > >> R/ > >> Matt > >> > >> Matthew J. Willis > >> Project Manager > >> Rapid Fire Protection Inc. > >> 1805 Samco Road > >> Rapid City, SD 57702 > >> Office-605.348.2342 > >> Cell-605.391.2733 > >> Fax:-605.348.0108 > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Sprinklerforum > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > >> Mike Hairfield > >> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 5:35 AM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: RE: Bottom of elevator shaft protection > >> > >> Some AHJ's classify it as Extra Hazard because of the Hydraulic Fluid, > I wouldsay ordinary hazard but never light hazard. > >> Mike > >> > >>> From: [email protected] > >>> To: [email protected] > >>> Subject: Bottom of elevator shaft protection > >>> Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 11:31:30 +0000 > >>> > >>> Question, > >>> Would the bottom of the elevator shaft be considered light or ordinary > hazard ? We have an elevator shaft 15-'4" wide, one head would be > acceptable as light hazard but not as ordinary hazard. > >>> > >>> > >>> Stephen J. Sorrell, CET > >>> NICET# 77901 Level III > >>> E mail: > >>> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > >>> > >>> Performance Fire Protection, LLC > >>> Corporate Office > >>> 179 Gasoline Alley - PO Box 4510 > >>> Mooresville, NC 28117 > >>> Phone: 704-663-1664 Fax: 704-663-1652 Cell : 704-309-1242 > >>> > >>> Web: www.performancefire.com<http://www.performancefire.com> > >>> Licensed in NC, SC, VA, TN, GA, AL > >>> > >>> "Performance on Every Level." > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink > >>> l > >>> er.org > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > >> er.org > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > >> er.org _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > >> er.org > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > >> er.org _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > >> er.org > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > >> er.org > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > >> er.org _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > >> er.org _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > >> er.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > -- \ \ (o> -- If life were easy... \ \_/ /) It'd be called your mom... \_/_) _|_ _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
