Agree about discovering, but as I said a few days ago something like~ fire size determines tenability conditions, and fire size is based on sprk height, spacing, temp rating, and RTI
Have I completely lost my mind? On Apr 18, 2016 3:15 PM, "Duane Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Brad, > > If smoke detectors cannot catch (meaning to discover) a fire, why do we > use them to initiate elevator recall before using heat detectors to shunt > the power? Smoke detectors are very effective in discovering products of > combustion. > > ***Please note our new address*** > > Duane Johnson, PE > Design Manager > Strickland Fire Protection > 4011 Penn Belt Place > Forestville, MD 20747 > 301-474-1136 Office > 301-455-0010 Cell > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad > Casterline > Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 3:54 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Fire Sprinkler Plan to Match Evacuation Plan?? > > Dear Duane, > > Smoke detectors are powerless to 'catch a fire', early or late, in terms > of its size and production of immobilizing products of combustion. What > they do is start smoke exhaust MUCH earlier than sprinkler flow switches, > and as it is smoke that kills more people than heat, I say more power to > them, if there are exhaust fans. > > Brad > On Apr 18, 2016 2:11 PM, "Duane Johnson" <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Smoke exhaust will use smoke as the fire signature (not heat) as the > > means to start the fans. The intent is to catch the fire early and > > prevent untenable situations. The quickest detectable fire signature > > for this scenario will be smoke, not heat (although there is more to > > the story, but just keeping it simple for this discussion). Typically > > there are duct detectors to detect the smoke. There are also local > > application smoke detectors near openings in the smoke barriers that > > will automatically close the doors to prevent smoke migration from one > compartment to the other. > > There may also be smoke detection throughout the smoke compartment. > > The whole purpose is to keep adjacent areas tenable to allow zoned > evacuation. > > If the adjacent areas becomes untenable, then an evacuation message > > will annunciate in that zone as well. Not to mention if it becomes > > untenable the entire fire safety plan has failed. > > > > ***Please note our new address*** > > > > Duane Johnson, PE > > Design Manager > > Strickland Fire Protection > > 4011 Penn Belt Place > > Forestville, MD 20747 > > 301-474-1136 Office > > 301-455-0010 Cell > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad > > Casterline > > Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 2:58 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Fire Sprinkler Plan to Match Evacuation > Plan?? > > > > Peter, > > > > Is it true that the 'smoke protected' systems you refer to require > > smoke detectors? If you are waiting 2 or 3 minutes for a sprinkler to > > operate, and add a 60 second flow switch retard feature, plus if there > > are exhast fans a 10 second ramp-up to full strength, these defend in > > place safe areas adjacent to the origin are already likely untenable. > > And you mentioned non-sprinklered facilities, so wouldn't the same > > Smoke, Evac, and FA matching footprint rules apply whether there were > > flow switches or not? > > Just curious, Brad > > On Apr 18, 2016 1:35 PM, "Larrimer, Peter A" <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > There must be one water flow alarm switch per smoke zone. When we > > > "defend in place" or defend in a safe place, that safe place is > > > usually a smoke zone that is separate from the zone of fire origin. > > > If there is only one sprinkler switch on a floor and there happens > > > to be three smoke zones, the one sprinkler switch cannot be > > > programmed to identify anything other than the floor. In that > > > scenario, an alarm would not be able to be programmed to tell staff > > > where the fire is located. Staff would only be able to be directed > > > to the floor and not the smoke zone of fire origin. Ideally, the > > > sprinklers would be fed from three risers through three separate > > > flow switches so that the signal sent over the fire alarm system > > > would identify the zone of fire origin to the staff. Each sprinkler > > > tends to serves as an initiating device to the fire alarm system > through its respective flow switch. > > > > > > The VA intends to provide one sprinkler zone per each smoke zone for > > > the reasons stated above. The codes are not specific on the details. > > > Some could argue that multiple smoke zones within a single sprinkler > > > zone could be provided and it would be compliant with the codes that > > > I have referenced. I don't disagree. However, how does the > > > facility try to write a fire plan and explain to staff that the fire > > > alarm system will tell you where to go when there is an alarm unless > > > the alarm is activated by the sprinkler system alarm in which case > > > the system can only tell you the floor where the fire is and not the > zone. > > > It just makes it difficult for our personnel to respond quickly to a > > fire. > > > > > > Note: A sprinkler system could be installed in a two story > > > healthcare building (defend in place) that has 3 or more smoke zones > > > per floor and have only one water flow switch for the whole building > > > and the installation would be in compliance with NFPA 13. > > > Unfortunately, if the fire alarm system was initiated by the > > > sprinkler system water flow switch, the fire alarm system would not > > > be able to identify the fire origin since the one and only switch > > > would be activated for any > > sprinkler in the building. > > > Where would the staff go to help assist with patient relocation? > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > Peter Larrimer > > > VA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > [email protected] > > > Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 12:05 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Fire Sprinkler Plan to Match Evacuation > > Plan?? > > > > > > Hi Peter, > > > > > > I have two related questions on your response, for clarification. > > > > > > First question: When you say "However, the fire alarm system can > > > only send the proper alarm signal from a sprinkler system if the > > > sprinkler system has a water flow switch per zone." Do you intend > > > that to mean, "if the sprinkler system has a water flow switch per > > > "smoke zone", or per "sprinkler zone"? > > > > > > Second question: When you say "Therefore, VA requires the sprinkler > > > zones to be coincidental with the smoke zones...". Do you intend > > > that to mean "one sprinkler zone=one smoke zone" or "one sprinkler > > > zone= one or more smoke zones", and that the boundary of the > > > sprinkler zone coincides with the boundary of all encompassed smoke > zones. > > > > > > Based upon your reference to NFPA 99, "15.7.4.3.1* Where buildings > > > are required to be subdivided into smoke compartments, fire alarm > > > notification zones shall coincide with one or more smoke compartment > > > boundaries or shall be in accordance with the facility fire plan.", > > > it appears to me that the correct answer to the first question is > > > "sprinkler zone", and the second question is "one sprinkler zone= > > > one > > or more smoke zones". > > > > > > Mark at Aero > > > 602 820-7894 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > > kl er.org _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > > kl > > > er.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > > er.org _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > > er.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
