Duane is correct. The following is just from my perspective since I don't know what the commenter was suggesting to Travis Mack below.
In the Department of Veterans Affairs, we follow the Life Safety Code and not the IBC so I will not speak to the IBC, but I suspect it is similar to what I am suggesting below. The VA "defends in place" when there is a fire alarm system activation. The fire alarm initiates a signal that tells staff where the fire is located so that staff can go to the fire zone and assist in relocating patients that are non-ambulatory (typically per the fire plan that is written after occupancy). The sprinkler zones should have the same boundaries as the smoke zones in the building. Without having the same zoning, the fire alarm system cannot identify where that alarm comes from when the sprinkler system activates. It is easy to send a proper signal with addressable fire alarm devices since they are programmed individually to generate whatever output you want. However, the fire alarm system can only send the proper alarm signal from a sprinkler system if the sprinkler system has a water flow switch per zone. Therefore, VA requires the sprinkler zones to be coincidental with the smoke zones and I am guessing that is what the commenter to Travis was suggesting. >From a code perspective, the sprinkler folks wouldn't necessarily see the >requirements, but there are some sections in the various codes that are >intended to get the design close to what I have indicated above. In NFPA 101 there is a section as follows (see item (3)): 9.6.3.6.3 Where occupants are incapable of evacuating themselves because of age, physical or mental disabilities, or physical restraint, all of the following shall apply: (1) The private operating mode, as described in NFPA 72, National Fire Alarm and Signaling Code, shall be permitted to be used. (2) Only the attendants and other personnel required to evacuate occupants from a zone, area, floor, or building shall be required to be notified. (3) Notification of personnel as specified in 9.6.3.6.3(2) shall include means to readily identify the zone, area, floor, or building in need of evacuation. In NFPA 99 there is another section as follows: 15.7.4.3 Defend in Place. For new and existing facilities, where the response to a fire is to defend in place within a safe place in the building, occupant notification shall be in accordance with the facility fire plan. 15.7.4.3.1* Where buildings are required to be subdivided into smoke compartments, fire alarm notification zones shall coincide with one or more smoke compartment boundaries or shall be in accordance with the facility fire plan. So for healthcare occupancies where occupants can't evacuate on their own, the above needs to be considered. Hopefully, the design documents will be clear on the requirements so that everyone knows what is expected, but I understand, that is often not the case (thus the change when an AHJ steps in to mandate this). I don't think the comments had anything to do with 52,000 square foot sprinkler zoning versus smoke zone sizes or smoke control systems (though that is another situation all together). It has everything to do with providing a proper signal to healthcare staff so that they can assist in relocating patients during a fire alarm (while the fire department fights fire). If you are in a hospital bed and the fire alarm goes off, you better hope that the system is working properly and there is a good fire plan in place so that your safety is not compromised. This is especially true in those unsprinklered healthcare facilities where the fire is not going to be controlled. Hope this helps. Pete Larrimer, PE Dept. of VA -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Travis Mack Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 10:41 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Fire Sprinkler Plan to Match Evacuation Plan?? That makes a lot of sense. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC "Follow" us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to MFP Design via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 13, 2016, at 6:29 PM, Duane Johnson <[email protected]> > wrote: > > There can be multiple alarm inputs in the matrix that initiate notification > for egress. Smokes, heats and flow switches all fall in that category as > alarm initiation. Any and each of them have to properly evacuate the > occupants. To make a long story short, no that is not how it works. > > Remember for I-2 the occupants are relying on assistance for self > preservation. It is impracticable to think that the health care professionals > can evacuate an entire building in a timely manner. Hence why zoned > evacuation is necessary. If a sprinkler activates, you need to start > evacuation. > > Duane Johnson > Strickland Fire Protection > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 13, 2016, at 9:23 PM, Travis Mack <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> I'm not an alarm guy so not sure, but wouldn't there be smoke detectors that >> could activate the fire alarms and voice evac systems. The flow switch could >> just be a general building alarm? This is way above my pay grade so just >> trying to think through it. >> >> Travis Mack, SET >> MFP Design, LLC >> "Follow" us on Facebook: >> https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 >> Send large files to MFP Design via: >> https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Apr 13, 2016, at 6:01 PM, Duane Johnson <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Don't forget the other half of the comment...evacuation. If the egress plan >>> includes zoned evacuation, in lieu of general building evacuation, then the >>> flow switch used to move folks from one smoke compartment to the other will >>> need to align with the compartments and the voice evacuation messages. If >>> egress plans tell you to move across a fire/smoke barrier but the fire >>> alarm message is playing or partially playing in that zone, then you have a >>> problem. Sections 9.6.3 and 9.6.7 in NFPA 101 provide some direction. >>> However all of this is a design choice and process that must be coordinated >>> during the design development phase, not during shop drawing development. >>> >>> Forward the comment to the AE for resolution. >>> >>> Duane Johnson >>> Strickland Fire Protection >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Apr 13, 2016, at 8:52 PM, Sprinkler <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Some people have already hit the nail on the head. If the smoke control >>>> system sequence of operations matrix requires the fire sprinklers to >>>> initiate automatic control, then they have to be zoned per the smoke zones >>>> (CBC 909.12.3, 2013 edition, check yours to make sure it is not a >>>> California thing). Automatic control for smoke control is for >>>> pressurization system (supply or exhaust). Is it possible the plan >>>> checkers "evacuation" comment is maybe smoke evacuation? >>>> >>>> The reason they must be zoned is because certain dampers and fans have to >>>> activate based on where the fire is. If there is not 100% smoke detector >>>> coverage, then the only thing to locate the fire based on a zone is the >>>> flow switch on the riser. >>>> >>>> IF there is 100% smoke detector coverage you could ask that the smoke >>>> control initiation be based on that. >>>> >>>> If the smoke control method for your building is passive, 909.12.2.2, >>>> (passive basically being only dampers) then those dampers can be activated >>>> by local smokes to each damper which may already be provided. >>>> >>>> Check your contract docs to see if there is a Smoke Control Rational >>>> Analysis Report. If there is there is likely a sequence of operations >>>> matrix and smoke zones shown in the document. It might say smokes initiate >>>> or it might say sprinklers initiate. Check it out. >>>> >>>> If there is nothing in your contract docs that states the smoke zones or >>>> any other indication of "automatic" versus "passive" system...then >>>> initiate your change order accordingly. >>>> >>>> Hope this helps. >>>> >>>> Justin Reid >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Apr 13, 2016, at 4:57 PM, Travis Mack, SET <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> It doesn't. I was just hoping there wasn't some strange reference in the >>>>> I-codes or NFPA 101 that requires the smoke, alarm and sprinkler zones to >>>>> follow the same footprint in an I-2 occupancy. This project currently has >>>>> 3 risers. It would go to 8 if we have to follow smoke zones as there are >>>>> 8 smoke compartments. Also, this was originally a loop system. That >>>>> would break so all of the pipe sizing would go up. It would just be a >>>>> real nightmare to adjust for something that I am hoping is not an obscure >>>>> reference. >>>>> >>>>> Travis Mack, SET >>>>> MFP Design, LLC >>>>> 2508 E Lodgepole Drive >>>>> Gilbert, AZ 85298 >>>>> 480-505-9271 >>>>> fax: 866-430-6107 >>>>> email:[email protected] >>>>> >>>>> http://www.mfpdesign.com >>>>> https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 >>>>> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign >>>>> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack >>>>> >>>>>> On 4/13/2016 4:46 PM, Matthew J Willis wrote: >>>>>> Ok, first thing in the am, I am re reading 13 on where any of this >>>>>> applies to a sprinkler drawing.... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>>> From: Brad Casterline <[email protected]> >>>>>> Date: 04/13/2016 5:44 PM (GMT-07:00) >>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>> Subject: Re: Fire Sprinkler Plan to Match Evacuation Plan?? >>>>>> >>>>>> Just a heads-up Travis, >>>>>> It might go deeper than matching footprints- that is rarely a problem. >>>>>> A problem would be if the exhaust rate sizer used QR, 165F, at >>>>>> max 225 S.F., but you, being a 13 aficionado, installed QR, 200F, at 324 >>>>>> S.F. >>>>>> >>>>>> In a ~16 ft ceiling the exhaust rate would fall about 20,000 CFM short... >>>>>> >>>>>> ballpark figures, of course. >>>>>> >>>>>> Brad >>>>>> On Apr 13, 2016 5:42 PM, "Roland Huggins" >>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> There is a section in the IBC that tries to address the fact >>>>>>> that fire alarm zones and sprinklers zones are different sizes >>>>>>> and that the larger sprinkler zone is NOT limited to the size of >>>>>>> the fire alarm zone. See section 907.6.4 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Roland >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering >>>>>>> American Fire Sprinkler Assn. --- Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives >>>>>>> Dallas, TX >>>>>>> http://www.firesprinkler.org <http://www.firesprinkler.org/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 13, 2016, at 11:20 AM, Travis Mack, SET >>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> I have a reviewer stating that the fire sprinkler plan has to >>>>>>>> match the >>>>>>> evacuation plan and the smoke zones of the fire alarm plan. This >>>>>>> is an I-2 Occupancy. Has anyone ever come across this? After 3 >>>>>>> weeks in plan review, he kicked it back saying he can't review >>>>>>> until we provide this information. It is the first time I have ever >>>>>>> heard of this. >>>>>>>> Travis Mack, SET >>>>>>>> MFP Design, LLC >>>>>>>> 2508 E Lodgepole Drive >>>>>>>> Gilbert, AZ 85298 >>>>>>>> 480-505-9271 >>>>>>>> fax: 866-430-6107 >>>>>>>> email:[email protected] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.mfpdesign.com >>>>>>>> https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 >>>>>>>> Send large files to us via: >>>>>>>> https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign >>>>>>>> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-fires >>>>>>> prinkler.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-fires >>>>>>> prinkler.org >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesp >>>>>> rinkler.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesp >>>>>> rinkler.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespr >>>>> inkler.org >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespri >>>> nkler.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin >>> kler.org >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> ler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
