Good analysis Bruce. I was just thinking a manual deluge would be the way to go. That would be identical the very earliest systems in England (pipes with holes and a control valve someone opened if need be). Obviously the area is attended while loading/unloading.
And since I'm at home relaxing now as opposed to being in my cubicle worrying about being busted for 'being on the internet' I want to correct something from my first post: .000283 ft^2, not ft^3. And if anyone is leery of deriving a K Factor using feet, seconds, and gravity, please try it with nominal 1/2" sprinklers. The well-known C of D for them is .75. Brad On Sep 19, 2016 3:39 PM, "Bruce Verhei" <bver...@comcast.net> wrote: > Why not a large orifice sidewall at each side of each trailer? > > Going back to objectives, and what is not objective. Writing it out helps, > at least me. > > 1. Goal is not to protect trailer or trailers contents; > > Assumed after this: > > 2. Goal is not to keep fire originating in building from spreading to > trailer/contents. > > 3. Goal is to confine fire originating in trailer or at opening from > spreading to building. > > 4. Design to reduce smoke damage is not a consideration. > > 5. Activation reliability/cost. Normally we think of reliability and cost > as being in conflict. In this case I don't think they are. It is my > observation that sprinkler heads are much more reliable than detection > system coupled to deluge valve. > > 6. Effectiveness. Some judgement and experience are call for. But I'd > expect the sidewall would likely be as or more effective at cooling the > plume moving into the building as the drill holes. > > 7. On-going cost. Sidewall would be cheaper. > > 8. Feasibility. We'd need to see more detail to see this. > > 9. Alarm, and response. Deluge detection, and sidewall would both result > in response. Assuming waterflow detection and off-site monitoring. > > Is this an old European national standard that pre-dates the EU? Similar > here to that DOD long term housing goods storage in plywood bins, > administered by someone who doesn't understand and doesn't care? > > You might find this has been around for decades, long before higher flow > sidewalls were available. (Again, like that outside canopy/loading dock > detail showing a dry pendant on a 45. Why? Because it was quite awhile > before dry sidewalls were commonly available.) > > Maybe asking the question will result in a change in practice. To me it > sounds like a spec coated in dust. > > Best > > Bruce Verhei > > On Sep 19, 2016, at 08:59, <mphe...@aerofire.com> <mphe...@aerofire.com> > wrote: > > Because, Ron, it would need to be a fuse that is UL Listed for use with > the Keg. (actuating device) But it would be fun to watch the test. > > Mark at Aero > > 602 820-7894 > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler. > org <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>] *On Behalf Of > *rongreenman > . > *Sent:* Monday, September 19, 2016 8:50 AM > *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > *Subject:* Re: spray bar versus deluge heads for opening protection > > > > Why not just put a barrel of water on top of keg of black powder with a > fuse going into the trailer? > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Brad Casterline <bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com> > wrote: > > That's upstream Gus. I'm just trying to help Craig get out of the (if Mr. > Greenman will pardon my French) Remote Area with the calc software he has. > > :) > > Brad > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler. > org] > > On Behalf Of Gus Olson > Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:37 AM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: spray bar versus deluge heads for opening protection > > Brad, > Don't forget to add a strainer > > Gus Olson > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler. > org] > On Behalf Of Brad Casterline > Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 11:30 AM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: spray bar versus deluge heads for opening protection > > P = 40 PSI > K = 1.55 > Q = 9.8 GPM > > 36 GPM / 9.8 = 3.67 holes per nozzle > > call it 4 :) > > Brad > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler. > org] > On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com > Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 9:57 AM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: spray bar versus deluge heads for opening protection > > Dude, you need serious help. HAHA > > Now how many average sprinkler designers could have figured that out? > > But it has to equal the discharge of spray nozzles which are required to > provide a minimum of 36 gpm at 40 psi around the perimeter. > > > > Craig L. Prahl > Fire Protection Group Lead/SME > CH2M > 200 Verdae Blvd. > Greenville, SC 29607 > Direct - 864.920.7540 > Fax - 864.920.7129 > CH2MHILL Extension 77540 > craig.pr...@ch2m.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler. > org] > On Behalf Of Brad Casterline > Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:37 AM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: spray bar versus deluge heads for opening protection > [EXTERNAL] > > (.25/24)^2 * PI = .000314 ft^2 > assume coefficient of discharge of .9 > .000314 *.9 = .000283 > > 'imply' 7 PSI > 7 / .433 = 16.167 (h) > v = (2gh)^.5 = 32.266 ft/sec > > 32.266 ft/sec * .000283 ft^3 = .00913 ft^3/sec, * 7.48 * 60 = 4.1 GPM > > Q = 4.1 > P = 7.0 > K = 1.55 > > Brad > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler. > org] > On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com > Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 9:11 AM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Subject: spray bar versus deluge heads for opening protection > > Today's teaser. > > An owner gives you this criteria for protecting a truck dock door opening. > A semi-trailer is parked at the opening up against the dock seal, the > trailer contains wooded pallets. > > The rollup door and the trailer doors remain open at all times for in and > out access. > > Their recommended method of protecting the opening is to use 1.5" pipe with > 1/4" holes drilled every 6". Provide this around the opening which is 12" > wide by 9' high. This is approved by their international corporate safety > department. > > This will be a deluge system for two dock doors. > > How are you going to calculate this? > > > Craig L. Prahl > Fire Protection Group Lead/SME > CH2M > 200 Verdae Blvd. > Greenville, SC 29607 > Direct - 864.920.7540 > Fax - 864.920.7129 > CH2MHILL Extension 77540 > craig.pr...@ch2m.com > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler. > org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler. > org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler. > org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler. > org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler. > org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler. > org > > > > > > -- > > Ron Greenman > > > 4110 Olson Dr., NW > Gig Harbor, WA 98335 > > rongreen...@gmail.com > > 253.576.9700 > > > > The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner > Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera > director (1942-) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler. > org > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler. > org > >
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