Probably semantics, but if the water supply has improved enough that a calculation now works, then it is no longer a “pipe schedule” system. It is now a “hydraulically calculated” system. So you could throw that 20 psi stipulation out the window.
I doubt you’ll have a working calculation where you can’t get 20 psi to the elevation of the sprinklers, but I’m just saying. -Kyle M From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Reed A. Roisum, SET Sent: Friday, October 06, 2017 12:38 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Pipe Schedule System Ron, I guess I’m probably a rare bird as I work for an engineering firm but am NICET certified. Typically, when I write reports they are reviewed and signed by a PE in my company. Correct, occupancy hasn’t changed. I did a lot of playing with the calc and it for sure isn’t going to work with the city water supply. I am planning on performing a new flow test because the last one is a few years old and there has been some underground main work in the area where I might gain a couple of pounds. But, even if the water supply has improved, with the stipulation about having to have 20 psi at the elevation of the highest sprinkler in a pipe schedule system, that a fire pump is the only option. Thanks for the thoughts. Reed Reed A. Roisum, SET | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Senior Fire Protection Designer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9903 | mobile: 701.388.1352 | KFIengineers.com<http://secure-web.cisco.com/1HcQZMCHpNKmgzCvOU7e0obfrRqMBS-1OZ_eRTpg50q5NSJ6Zdi52rpQRbVH9Ab2ZG_Ps95aEwg4zd-1zQQZp9d03qc85ecgLIT3nmPwIUQht5cFwMM2a7EjXf1LqYb0Mt4oH3LseP_UuFhTrQFr3XQ_K-QzAFg1AT9ehEz8Knm2gE1sFVxcGTofTsp2w1p9QxzDcEEQY_ROLM9d8ZKoM6cx3RxvxSq9BRrfs_z0Gsvk2Xymz233OWRocoZ0OEG4JHfgyFlbNcr_0r8hn_qcfLg/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kfiengineers.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of rongreenman . Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 2:26 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: Pipe Schedule System The minimum standard of care is to meet the requirements of the applicable version of NFPA 13 (and maybe 20). The SET after your name limits you to that. If it were a PE you'd have more flexibility but still need to prove your assessment was equal to or better than the minimum standard. You're just in a crappy place with this one. We are assuming occupancy hasn't changed? Yes? You say your issue is elevation and the problem is residual pressure. Can you play around with orifice size? On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 11:59 AM, Reed A. Roisum, SET <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: I’m not a contractor so I’m not worried about losing work. I am trying to help the owner and making sure I am exploring all options available so they can make the decision with all of the pertinent information. Like I said, I will recommend installing the fire pump and fully sprinklering the building, but just wondering if that is the only option, or if there are other, not as good, options. Reed A. Roisum, SET | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Senior Fire Protection Designer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9903<tel:(701)%20552-9903> | mobile: 701.388.1352<tel:(701)%20388-1352> | KFIengineers.com<http://secure-web.cisco.com/1HcQZMCHpNKmgzCvOU7e0obfrRqMBS-1OZ_eRTpg50q5NSJ6Zdi52rpQRbVH9Ab2ZG_Ps95aEwg4zd-1zQQZp9d03qc85ecgLIT3nmPwIUQht5cFwMM2a7EjXf1LqYb0Mt4oH3LseP_UuFhTrQFr3XQ_K-QzAFg1AT9ehEz8Knm2gE1sFVxcGTofTsp2w1p9QxzDcEEQY_ROLM9d8ZKoM6cx3RxvxSq9BRrfs_z0Gsvk2Xymz233OWRocoZ0OEG4JHfgyFlbNcr_0r8hn_qcfLg/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kfiengineers.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of Matthew J Willis Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 1:51 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: RE: Pipe Schedule System I understand. I truly do. But to answer if it changes my thoughts, the answer is no. Not only that, it makes my position more steadfast. I could use that same thought process of perceived life safety improvement, and just place one sprinkler in each large storage room, and come back and add the rest at a later date, when it is more convenient/affordable. As Ron stated, give the life safety assessment. I have lost customers before, and walked on others. But I never worried about anything I recommended or provided. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis Project Manager Rapid Fire Protection Inc.<http://secure-web.cisco.com/19x3Egmd7sByBCA7fXbULt-pwjDwdEzvB9fsm2AfQ2lVX__wn0gDONQu3JxgL5Y4EZ8SJ5Kx5xsjgXJnku7TBdDWf3UKY2f-AksoJ5uQ4IiWjgj4Fovx_lRdnydn4Cv2t89eqcfY8jNVZgbI5puL1ujcj2cDO9fEFa5F7SycSbjifol6VWTCcI5sD5-SxeAbBs_GaCC228Y6acefWOZwm-Glkf5PNtLqIil36Nhtn5nQpsva9YaHaZbi6U-KA367iKVWi-0f-dFOwBrZzCgw3mQ/http%3A%2F%2Frapidfireinc.com%2F> 1530 Samco Road Rapid City, SD 57702 Office-605.348.2342<tel:(605)%20348-2342> Direct Line-605.593.5063<tel:(605)%20593-5063> Cell-605.391.2733<tel:(605)%20391-2733> Fax:-605.348.0108<tel:(605)%20348-0108> [cid:[email protected]] From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Reed A. Roisum, SET Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 12:33 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: RE: Pipe Schedule System Ron, Todd, Scott, Matt: I agree with your statements and I’m not trying to be argumentative, but the system in place currently, does not “work”. We all know that even if the system doesn’t hydraulically work it still provides a degree of life safety and could actually “work” to control a fire….whatever…it has been assumed that it will do that job for the last 50 years. If the owner decides they don’t want the expense and hassle of a fire pump and decides to scrap the whole fire sprinkler upgrade because of it, then life safety has not improved at all. However, if the entire rest of the building is retrofitted with sprinklers, life safety does improve, and maybe down the road they can install a fire pump so the entire system will calc. I know it is the owner’s decision, but I am looking at it in a practical way, how I have often witnessed the fire official look at it. That is, we would be improving the life safety of the building dramatically and leaving an “inadequate” system in place. I know liability is a big part of a discussion like this, but if we leave that out for now, does that change your thoughts at all? I am thinking of it this way because the owner’s rep said, “This could be a game changer for us”, when I told them the existing system would not “work” without a fire pump. I know what is best and that is what I will recommend, but because I haven’t dealt with pipe schedule systems (other than replacing them), I was wondering in what instances, if any, you can leave a pipe schedule system in place when doing an upgrade? I also thought of discussing with the AHJ the option of retrofitting sprinklers throughout the building now, and installing a fire pump later. Just looking for options beyond what would be ideal. Thanks. Reed Reed A. Roisum, SET | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Senior Fire Protection Designer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9903<tel:(701)%20552-9903> | mobile: 701.388.1352<tel:(701)%20388-1352> | KFIengineers.com<http://secure-web.cisco.com/1HcQZMCHpNKmgzCvOU7e0obfrRqMBS-1OZ_eRTpg50q5NSJ6Zdi52rpQRbVH9Ab2ZG_Ps95aEwg4zd-1zQQZp9d03qc85ecgLIT3nmPwIUQht5cFwMM2a7EjXf1LqYb0Mt4oH3LseP_UuFhTrQFr3XQ_K-QzAFg1AT9ehEz8Knm2gE1sFVxcGTofTsp2w1p9QxzDcEEQY_ROLM9d8ZKoM6cx3RxvxSq9BRrfs_z0Gsvk2Xymz233OWRocoZ0OEG4JHfgyFlbNcr_0r8hn_qcfLg/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kfiengineers.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of rongreenman . Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 12:39 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: Pipe Schedule System If the system isn't required by code and you are doing a life safety analysis then your job is to give the client advice regarding life safety. 1. The client wants good life safety demonstrated by have the analysis done at all. 2. The system is not required. 3. Better life safety is obtained with a system. 4. The system can't work without a pump, thus a pump is required for the desired degree of life safety. 5. Analysis of cost versus benefit of the system. 6. Owner's decision. On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 10:27 AM, <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Everything you install or modify has to “work”. Anything that you know doesn’t is bad ethics and a huge liability issue. Give the owner the options for fully adequate systems and let him make the decision. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080<tel:(860)%20535-2080> (ofc) 860-553-3553<tel:(860)%20553-3553> (fax) 860-608-4559<tel:(860)%20608-4559> (cell) On Oct 6, 2017 at 12:41 PM, <SET Reed A. Roisum<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: I have an existing pipe schedule system in a partially sprinklered building…installed in 1969. I am doing a life safety analysis that includes budget estimating to provide new fire alarm and sprinklers. The existing pipe schedule portion of the system is considerably higher in elevation and remote. It doesn’t work hydraulically with the city supply. Even when I replace the system with larger pipe I can’t get the calc to work. In order to install a new system or keep the existing system in place and have it hydraulically “work” we will need to install a fire pump. My problem is, the owner may decide to just upgrade the fire alarm system and not sprinkler the building if we need a fire pump as the sprinkler retrofit is voluntary. My question for the Forum is, can an existing pipe schedule system be left in place even if we retrofit the rest of the building and hydraulically prove the rest of the building? NFPA 13, 2013 edition… 23.5 Pipe Schedules Pipe schedules shall not be used, except in existing systems and in new systems or extensions to existing systems described in Chapter 11. Water supplies shall conform to 11.2.2. If I can meet the water supply requirements of Table 11.2.2.1 for Ordinary Hazard, which is a minimum pressure of 20 psi flowing 850 gpm then is the pipe schedule permitted? It appears as though I am out of luck because of 11.2.2.6.1 Residual Pressure… The residual pressure requirement of Table 11.2.2.1 shall be met at the elevation of the highest sprinkler. The main reason I can’t get the calc to work is because of elevation. I would assume the AHJ would be willing to work with us if the choices are… 1. No upgrade to the sprinkler system, or 2. A fully sprinklered building with 2000 sq ft that is pipe schedule and doesn’t work hydraulically. Any insight or ideas will be appreciated. Reed Reed A. Roisum, SET | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Senior Fire Protection Designer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9903<tel:(701)%20552-9903> | mobile: 701.388.1352<tel:(701)%20388-1352> | KFIengineers.com<http://secure-web.cisco.com/1HcQZMCHpNKmgzCvOU7e0obfrRqMBS-1OZ_eRTpg50q5NSJ6Zdi52rpQRbVH9Ab2ZG_Ps95aEwg4zd-1zQQZp9d03qc85ecgLIT3nmPwIUQht5cFwMM2a7EjXf1LqYb0Mt4oH3LseP_UuFhTrQFr3XQ_K-QzAFg1AT9ehEz8Knm2gE1sFVxcGTofTsp2w1p9QxzDcEEQY_ROLM9d8ZKoM6cx3RxvxSq9BRrfs_z0Gsvk2Xymz233OWRocoZ0OEG4JHfgyFlbNcr_0r8hn_qcfLg/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kfiengineers.com> ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. 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