Travis, Good point about doing the work for free. Lately I've been lamenting the fact that we end up doing a lot of this type of free work in the bid phase, only to end up losing the project to a low-ball bidder. I guess that's a risk you have to take sometimes, but if you've already got a contract, try to get paid for it for sure.
I do have a question about your calculation method though. Have you actually seen it prescribed the way you mention in a code somewhere? I've always understood the intent of IFC to be that you must have 20 psi available at the connection to the city main, not at the individual hydrants; I think that is actually pretty clearly the intent of IFC. You can figure that out by looking at a flow test without even performing a calculation. However, if you go with that interpretation, there isn't a whole lot of guidance on how to size the underground, which I think is what leads to all these different strategies as to how to "calc the underground". Kyle Montgomery [cid:image001.gif@01CAA0CE.8D8066F0] Aero Automatic Sprinkler Co. 21605 N. Central Ave. Phoenix, AZ 85024 Direct: 623.580.7820 Cell: 602.763.4736 kmontgom...@aerofire.com<mailto:kmontgom...@aerofire.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of MFP Design, LLC Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 1:30 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Underground Main Bobby: As a side note, Civil guys and FP Groups get paid very well to be doing this work of sizing fire lines. Don't do yourself and your company a disservice by giving this type of stuff away. It just cheapens the industry to be giving stuff like this away. They came to you because they had no idea how to do it. As the design professional of record for this site fire line / hydrant system now, you should be treated and compensated like the design professional. Best of luck. From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of MFP Design, LLC Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 1:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Underground Main Sorry...crazy day...20 psi...yikes..I need to stop today. Site fire flow is the SITE. You don't increase to two times unless the IFC requires it. From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Welch, Bobby Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 1:07 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Underground Main Where are you coming up with the 100 psi? Also does the flow need to be increased to 2000 do to there being two hydrants? From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of MFP Design, LLC Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 4:04 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Underground Main Site fire flow and sprinkler demand are independent calcs. If you say it is 1500 gpm then start your calc Q = 1500, P = 100. I would just base it at one hydrant. Pf = L *4.52*Q^1.85 / C^1.85 / d^4.87 Be sure to account for your fittings in the calcs and it is simple. This is about as simple of a calc as you can get if it is a dead end main. If you need something for your computer software, just go with flow 1500 and pressure of 100. I hope that clears it up. [MFP_logo_F] Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 email:tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:email:tm...@mfpdesign.com> http://secure-web.cisco.com/1ik8DXeDTaCZr0rwxFtAZEx4RWE48fP8ntAdYjETOQonPRb4vKqanIzvaLx6D3OaUi4M3z3Vmq_exUFzZHWZ-PorGfE1XdhehtJH4FHbbXT8ZQXWZ9mzSzZq559lQpjsboNCWaeU_-07RbSOIr-ALlkuX06TZlmktgqfYqGraFEUzRZpD4XuzMdvYY7eCvo-2zNxB3qQGSIcaU0_lXkSLDmYn6wnuubENBeoIPTr0FdxieNqCilPpqEaQdJrZW4ALQxiabK9A1ADT6dwUnDV-Uw/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mfpdesign.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mfpdesign.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=HJ8OA4xyeHAoxXNz5mu%2FYfycgtd5nsFrrpvzulZiNkQ%3D&reserved=0> https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fpages%2FMFP-Design-LLC%2F92218417692&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=H%2BwdcgK8DLGBcNoqJEvUrzsXngySwkX56Vgf9gM9EGk%3D&reserved=0> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D&reserved=0> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D&reserved=0> "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Welch, Bobby Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 1:00 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Underground Main I know that the building requires 1,500 gpm because it is a fully sprinklered building and it is only 38,000 square feet. And I know the number of hydrants, there are two and per the table C105.1 they require 2,000 - 2,250 gpm. I just don't understand how this has to be calculated would I have each hydrant flowing 1,000 gpm at 20 psi and have a flowing node at the building feed flowing the sprinkler system gpm and psi? From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Parsley Consulting Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 3:54 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>; Welch, Bobby <bobby.we...@veteranfireprotection.com<mailto:bobby.we...@veteranfireprotection.com>> Subject: Re: Underground Main there Bobby, Not sure which area you're working in, however there is an appendix B to the IFC or it's variants which shows how much fire flow is required for a building based on it's square footage and construction type, with the required pressure being 20 psi at the hydrant, at least in the IFC and CFC I've worked with. The number of hydrants required to deliver that flow is established in the next appendix, C. As I'm the soon-to- be ex-chair of the NFPA 24 committee please see the disclaimer below. Ken Wagoner, SET Parsley Consulting 350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206 Escondido, California 92025 Phone 760-745-6181 Visit the website <http://secure-web.cisco.com/1U5F0EnVXHRWdfNIZrFkbe6INghCAHbEbatDMG3EoKJiziDD3gjCPEHuq0bSdQYOuFsiiHDQHNLGBEmyt75VF9MWbp_nCGOTQc54I4DzqzH8Wkiyt4GLWzZisu6E8uBBNrHYGqvZoG7QH7r7lgj8KkY0epAlTW0nnwBoL_1WAdlMAQfZ-WlvjTcQ6bSrP20xW0a2vFHjhCOR7_WHlToIFByVFdaM5LIImVhAm5orIE7sa0AWbtl-irveHXYOlBKspjtjgL4yLULn2pf5p825rfQ/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.parsleyconsulting.com%2F> IMPORTANT NOTICE: This correspondence is not a Formal Interpretation issued pursuant to NFPA Regulations. Any opinion expressed is the personal opinion of the author and does not necessarily represent the official position of the NFPA or its Technical Committees. In addition, this correspondence is neither intended, nor should it be relied upon, to provide professional consultation or services It should be noted that the above is my opinion as a member of the NFPA Installation of Private Fire Service Mains and their Appurtenances Committee in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects and should therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as the official position of the NFPA or its Committees <http://secure-web.cisco.com/1U5F0EnVXHRWdfNIZrFkbe6INghCAHbEbatDMG3EoKJiziDD3gjCPEHuq0bSdQYOuFsiiHDQHNLGBEmyt75VF9MWbp_nCGOTQc54I4DzqzH8Wkiyt4GLWzZisu6E8uBBNrHYGqvZoG7QH7r7lgj8KkY0epAlTW0nnwBoL_1WAdlMAQfZ-WlvjTcQ6bSrP20xW0a2vFHjhCOR7_WHlToIFByVFdaM5LIImVhAm5orIE7sa0AWbtl-irveHXYOlBKspjtjgL4yLULn2pf5p825rfQ/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.parsleyconsulting.com%2F> On 10/24/2017 12:24 PM, Welch, Bobby wrote: I am working on a underground project were the new private fire main is feeding the building sprinkler system and two hydrants. I am told that the underground has to be calculated. I understand how I calculate the building to prove that the sprinkler system will work but how do I prove that the hydrants work as well? _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://secure-web.cisco.com/1zka6DEi0MkFdXXRU3eLScggY1MCK-No_ZqJ4b7d6D3Z1DEitQomyEiuRxiUeF1RqQ4kcZ9GC_U7gF992hQwGA9z7aap_stB0c7DaacB3LyqbQ2I3aaxN3PlVHKxBV7HY0KIADFq-FPoDajXNnW46X3V0QCynrPMIkUeuSw9l7d77KzgPd9s5oVb0Q6lkFWZNBrpJqxNO6QVi8r2VGFdUR7LJalxpNPV-pZgZLyAcHhZLGPzeG18t3iMCjLK6YHWPGljo8CKevpiaWXSzXtQZQQ/http%3A%2F%2Flists.firesprinkler.org%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fsprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
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