I just informed them to use concealed residential sprinklers and stay with 13R. 
 I think the main driver was that this building has the cops visiting about 3 
times a week so they were looking for something tamper proof.  I did inform 
them that institutional sprinklers are not tamper proof, just more tamper 
resistant than other sprinklers...and that the main purpose for institutional 
is so that occupants can't harm themselves (as easily).  If they keep pushing 
the institutional route, I will just let them know what it will cost for the 
dry system in the attic to move to NFPA 13 and I think we will be just fine as 
I suggest.

Thank you everyone for the help.


Reed A. Roisum, SET | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Senior Fire Protection 
Designer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9903 | mobile: 701.388.1352 | 
http://www.kfiengineers.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2018 10:25 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Residential Sprinklers

I would not get involved in such a toeing-the-line exercise.   Just 
fire-protect the building per 13 and you don't have to dance with these 
restrictions.    The owner's well-intended energies regarding institutional 
sprinklers are blurring the line between application and the intent of 13R, 
i.e. life-safety.

SL

-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Reed A. Roisum, SET
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2018 7:38 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Residential Sprinklers

Thank you.  New, but related question...the owner wants to install 
institutional sprinklers in the dwelling units as they are concerned with 
tampering and are willing to pay a premium.  The institutional sprinklers (Tyco 
RAVEN) are QR but not residential (as far as I can tell).  So, based on the 
reference John provided below, we could install up to four institutional (QR) 
sprinklers per dwelling unit and the rest would need to be residential 
sprinklers, correct?  And, we would need to design to 0.1 gpm/sq ft.



NFPA 13R, 2013 edition

6.2 Use of Sprinklers.

6.2.1 Inside Dwelling Units.

6.2.1.1 Listed residential sprinklers shall be used unless another type is 
permitted by 6.2.1.3 or 6.2.1.4.

6.2.1.2 Residential sprinklers shall not be used on systems other than wet pipe 
systems unless specifically listed for use on that particular type of system.

6.2.1.3 Listed quick-response sprinklers shall be permitted to be installed in 
dwelling units meeting the definition of a compartment, as defined in Section 
3.3, where no more than four sprinklers are located in the dwelling unit.

6.2.1.3.1 Where quick-response sprinklers, including extended coverage 
quick-response sprinklers, are used, the density/area requirement shall be a 
minimum of 0.1 gpm/ft2 (4.1 mm/min)over the entire dwelling unit.

6.2.1.3.2 Where extended coverage quick-response sprinklers are used, the flow 
shall be sufficient to meet the listing of the sprinklers at the spacing for 
which they are being used.

6.2.1.4 Quick-response sprinklers discharging a minimum of 0.1 gpm/ft2 (4.1 
mm/min) shall be permitted to be used in mechanical closets.







Reed A. Roisum, SET | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Senior Fire Protection 
Designer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9903 | mobile: 701.388.1352 | 
KFIengineers.com<http://www.kfiengineers.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of John Paulsen
Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2018 8:22 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Residential Sprinklers



Reed:



6.2.1.3  13R, 2016



John Paulsen - SET

Crown Fire System Design

6282 Seeds Rd.

Grove City, OH 43123

P - 614-782-2438

F - 614-782-2374

C - 614-348-8206







-----Original Message-----

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Fpdcdesign

Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2018 9:14 AM

To: Sprinklerforum 
<sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>

Subject: Re: Residential Sprinklers









Reed,



6.7.7.1.3. (2007). Carries through in later versions (as far as I looked). I 
ran I. To a similar situation recently and we had to change to 13





 Todd G Williams, PE

Fire Protection Design/Consulting

Stonington, CT

860-535-2080 (ofc)

860-553-3553 (fax)

860-608-4559 (cell)











>

> On Mar 6, 2018 at 9:08 AM,  <SET Reed A. Roisum 
> (mailto:raroi...@kfi-eng.com)>  wrote:

>

>

>

>  Thanks Travis. Can you please point me to where it says that?

>

>

> Reed A. Roisum, SET | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Senior Fire

> Protection Designer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9903 | mobile:

> 701.388.1352 | http://www.kfiengineers.com

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Sprinklerforum

> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of

> MFP Design, LLC

> Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 5:08 PM

> To:
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerfo...@lists.fir
> esprinkler.org>

> Subject: RE: Residential Sprinklers

>

> You can only have a maximum of 4 QR sprinklers per dwelling unit, not just 
> compartment. If you need more than 4 standard spray sprinklers, you can't 
> comply with 13R.

>

>

> Travis Mack, SET

> MFP Design, LLC

> 3356 E Vallejo Ct

> Gilbert, AZ 85298

> 480-505-9271

> fax: 866-430-6107

> email:tm...@mfpdesign.com

>

> http://www.mfpdesign.com

> https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692

> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack

>

> "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price 
> is forgotten."

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Sprinklerforum
> <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-
> boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>

> On Behalf Of Art Tiroly

> Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 4:00 PM

> To:
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerfo...@lists.fir
> esprinkler.org>

> Subject: RE: Residential Sprinklers

>

> Using 5.6K QR heads will change the hydraulic calculations and minimum flows 
> allowed by residential sprinklers.

>

>

> Art Tiroly

> ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly

> 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143

> 216-621-8899

> 216-570-7030 cell

>

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Sprinklerforum

> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]

> On Behalf Of Reed A. Roisum, SET

> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2018 4:47 PM

> To:
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerfo...@lists.fir
> esprinkler.org>

> Subject: Residential Sprinklers

>

> Are residential sprinklers required for dwelling units in NFPA 13R? It 
> appears as though they can be QR or residential in the 2012 IBC (903.3.2).

> For some reason I had in my mind that they needed to be residential within 
> the dwelling unit or sleeping unit??

>

> Thanks.

>

> Reed R.

>

> Reed A. Roisum, SET | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Senior Fire

> Protection Designer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9903 | mobile:

> 701.388.1352 | http://www.kfiengineers.com

>

>

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