Ben,
You just made my head spin and green stuff started flying
everywhere! Not sure what that was all about, but thanks for making
me think.
Thank you,
Bob Knight, CET III
208-318-3057
From: Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
Ben Young
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 12:45 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: concealed space less than 6" deep
Bob, I see where you're coming from with this, but we've seen this
in the past with NFPA (previously doing the 0.10 calc for
residential heads referred back to the small room spacing rules for
SSU/P heads).
Also, 8.15.1.2.3 refers only to studs and joists and distances, not
distances between something else.
So 1.2.3 reads '...formed by studs or joists with less than 6"
between the inside edges of the studs or joists...'
1.2.4 reads '...formed by bar joists with less than 6" between roof
or floor deck and ceiling...'
So in 124 you are looking at the space between a floor and ceiling
125 its between the joists and the ceiling.
But in 123, you only have the distances between joists and... more joists.
This is why I hate reading too deeply into the code. Now I'm asking
myself if 123 doesn't work the way you're saying, then how do we not
have to provide sprinkler protection inside of wood stud walls! (I
thought that was a separate section of 8.15.1.2 but its not there
that I can see now)
Brad, 11.2.3.1.4 applies to area/density and room design.
Benjamin Young
On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 2:09 PM, Bob <[email protected]> wrote:
Ken,
The figure that is cited is an example of the 6” rule using the
figure from the double joist requirements. Section 8.6.4.1.5.1 &
8.15.1.2.3 are two different scenarios. Borrowing the idea of less
than 6” as being a triggering point (no snowflake innuendo intended)
from the other. They are not intended to be the same requirement.
In my opinion.
Thank you,
Bob Knight, CET III
208-318-3057 <tel:(208)%20318-3057>
From: Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
Parsley Consulting
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 12:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: concealed space less than 6" deep
Bob,
I just looked at that section, and at first glance I see what you're
driving at. Then I noted "See Figure 8.6.4.1.5.1", and I looked at
the figure. It's describing a vertical distance between the studs,
not the distance down from the studs to the ceiling, so I would say
that does not apply to what Ben noted.
sincerely,
Ken Wagoner, SET
Parsley Consulting
350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206
Escondido, California 92025
Phone 760-745-6181 <tel:(760)%20745-6181>
Visit the website <http://www.parsleyconsulting.com/>
On 03/28/2018 9:52 AM, Bob wrote:
Ken,
While it is true that 8.15.1.2.5 deals with solid wood joist,
8.15.1.2.3 simply uses the terms stud or joist with no mention of
solid. This section could be applied to allow for the omittance of
the sprinklers. However, as Travis stated the 3000 sf design area
(or 8 sprinklers for residential) kicks in.
Thank you,
Bob Knight, CET III
208-318-3057 <tel:(208)%20318-3057>
From: Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
Parsley Consulting
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 10:46 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: concealed space less than 6" deep
While I don't like to disagree with my friend Travis I feel
compelled to point out that 8.15.1.2.5 applies only to wood joist or
solid wood joist construction. It's also been hammered at me and
many others that TJI's such as Ben described are not "wood joists"
for NFPA 13 purposes.
My thought for the owner, Ben, is that he would not have to fill the
space with insulation, merely from the ceiling to the bottom of the
TJI, per 8.15.1.2.8, and follow the firestopping mandates for the
channels formed by the joists.
sincerely,
Ken Wagoner, SET
Parsley Consulting
350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206
Escondido, California 92025
Phone 760-745-6181 <tel:(760)%20745-6181>
Visit the website <http://www.parsleyconsulting.com/>
On 03/28/2018 9:19 AM, MFP Design, LLC wrote:
I think 8.15.1.2.5 is going to be your best bet. The issue is that
in many other places of the standard, composite wood joist are
specifically handled differently than wood joist and are not
considered “similar solid member construction.”
As far as the specially listed sprinklers, I think you would have to
use them with 8.15.1.6. This says less than 36”, which I take as
from zero to 36” in depth. The specially listed sprinklers have a
requirement of 6” minimum clear space. This gets you back to there
is no sprinkler that is available to protect this space.
I would lean back to 8.15.1.2.5 and keep sprinklers out of the
space. But, you will need to increase the design area to 3000 sq ft
for adjacent spaces.
MFP_logo_F
Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
3356 E Vallejo Ct
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271 <tel:(480)%20505-9271>
fax: 866-430-6107 <tel:(866)%20430-6107>
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From: Sprinklerforum
<mailto:[email protected]>
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Mike
Hairfield
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 9:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: concealed space less than 6" deep
I was at a AFSA NFPA 13 2013 ed seminar that was given by the AFA
Virginia Chapter
that the Great Bob Caputo was the instructor and this came up.
If I remember correctly he stated that sprinklers are not required,
but maybe it was
during one of the times that doze off.
Mike
_____
From: Sprinklerforum
<[email protected]> on behalf of Ben
Young <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 12:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: concealed space less than 6" deep
I feel like this has come up here before, but nothing came back when
I did searches through the archives.
I've got a concealed space that needs sprinklers, but I don't know
how I'm going to put them in.
(Light hazard office space under 2013 ED of 13)
Wood TJI construction with an ACT suspended ceiling below it.
From top of joist to face of ceiling is only 16.5" deep
TJIs are 12" deep
How the heck do I protect this space with only a 4.5" gap that will
be even smaller with the grid?
Owner refuses to fill space with insulation inside trusses (for the
time being)
CC spec app heads not required since the space is so small anyway,
but I think that also means I can't use CPVC, which would make
hanging the pipe parallel to the trusses a lot easier.
Its obstructed construction, so I should be able to put pendent
heads below the bottom edge of the TJIs, but it will be no more than
2-3 inches above the ceiling.
I don't even know if that will work so worst case is I need heads
inside every truss space, right?
The salesperson is telling me to use some weird combination of
8.15.1.2.3 (which I believe only applied to double trusses ) and
8.15.1.2.5 (which only applies to solid member construction and then
you have 8.15.1.2.6 directly below it calling out TJIs)
This definitely feels like a catch-22.
Thanks,
Benjamin Young
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