Bob, I see where you're coming from with this, but we've seen this in the past with NFPA (previously doing the 0.10 calc for residential heads referred back to the small room spacing rules for SSU/P heads). Also, 8.15.1.2.3 refers only to studs and joists and distances, not distances between something else.
So 1.2.3 reads '...formed by studs or joists with less than 6" between the inside edges of the studs or joists...' 1.2.4 reads '...formed by bar joists with less than 6" between roof or floor deck and ceiling...' So in 124 you are looking at the space between a floor and ceiling 125 its between the joists and the ceiling. But in 123, you only have the distances between joists and... more joists. This is why I hate reading too deeply into the code. Now I'm asking myself if 123 doesn't work the way you're saying, then how do we not have to provide sprinkler protection inside of wood stud walls! (I thought that was a separate section of 8.15.1.2 but its not there that I can see now) Brad, 11.2.3.1.4 applies to area/density and room design. Benjamin Young On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 2:09 PM, Bob <[email protected]> wrote: > Ken, > > The figure that is cited is an example of the 6” rule using the figure > from the double joist requirements. Section 8.6.4.1.5.1 & 8.15.1.2.3 are > two different scenarios. Borrowing the idea of less than 6” as being a > triggering point (no snowflake innuendo intended) from the other. They are > not intended to be the same requirement. In my opinion. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Bob Knight, CET III > > 208-318-3057 <(208)%20318-3057> > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org] *On Behalf Of *Parsley Consulting > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 28, 2018 12:09 PM > > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: concealed space less than 6" deep > > > > Bob, > > I just looked at that section, and at first glance I see what you're > driving at. Then I noted "See Figure 8.6.4.1.5.1", and I looked at the > figure. It's describing a vertical distance between the studs, not the > distance down from the studs to the ceiling, so I would say that does not > apply to what Ben noted. > > sincerely, > > > *Ken Wagoner, SET* > > > *Parsley Consulting350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206Escondido, California > 92025* > *Phone 760-745-6181 <(760)%20745-6181>**Visit the website > <http://www.parsleyconsulting.com/> * > > On 03/28/2018 9:52 AM, Bob wrote: > > Ken, > > While it is true that 8.15.1.2.5 deals with solid wood joist, 8.15.1.2.3 > simply uses the terms stud or joist with no mention of solid. This section > could be applied to allow for the omittance of the sprinklers. However, as > Travis stated the 3000 sf design area (or 8 sprinklers for residential) > kicks in. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Bob Knight, CET III > > 208-318-3057 <(208)%20318-3057> > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org <[email protected]>] *On Behalf Of *Parsley > Consulting > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 28, 2018 10:46 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: concealed space less than 6" deep > > > > While I don't like to disagree with my friend Travis I feel compelled to > point out that 8.15.1.2.5 applies *only* to wood joist or solid wood > joist construction. It's also been hammered at me and many others that > TJI's such as Ben described are not "wood joists" for NFPA 13 purposes. > > My thought for the owner, Ben, is that he would not have to fill the space > with insulation, merely from the ceiling to the bottom of the TJI, per > 8.15.1.2.8, and follow the firestopping mandates for the channels formed by > the joists. > > sincerely, > > > *Ken Wagoner, SET* > > > *Parsley Consulting350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206Escondido, California > 92025* > *Phone 760-745-6181 <(760)%20745-6181>Visit the website > <http://www.parsleyconsulting.com/> * > > > > On 03/28/2018 9:19 AM, MFP Design, LLC wrote: > > *I think 8.15.1.2.5 is going to be your best bet. The issue is that in > many other places of the standard, composite wood joist are specifically > handled differently than wood joist and are not considered “similar solid > member construction.”* > > > > *As far as the specially listed sprinklers, I think you would have to use > them with 8.15.1.6. This says less than 36”, which I take as from zero to > 36” in depth. The specially listed sprinklers have a requirement of 6” > minimum clear space. This gets you back to there is no sprinkler that is > available to protect this space. * > > > > *I would lean back to 8.15.1.2.5 and keep sprinklers out of the space. > But, you will need to increase the design area to 3000 sq ft for adjacent > spaces.* > > > > > > > > [image: MFP_logo_F] > > Travis Mack, SET > > MFP Design, LLC > > 3356 E Vallejo Ct > > Gilbert, AZ 85298 > > 480-505-9271 <(480)%20505-9271> > > fax: 866-430-6107 <(866)%20430-6107> > > email:[email protected] > > > > http://www.mfpdesign.com > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mfpdesign.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=HJ8OA4xyeHAoxXNz5mu%2FYfycgtd5nsFrrpvzulZiNkQ%3D&reserved=0> > > https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fpages%2FMFP-Design-LLC%2F92218417692&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=H%2BwdcgK8DLGBcNoqJEvUrzsXngySwkX56Vgf9gM9EGk%3D&reserved=0> > > Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D&reserved=0> > > LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D&reserved=0> > > > > *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of > low price is forgotten.**”* > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> > <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Mike > Hairfield > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 28, 2018 9:13 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: concealed space less than 6" deep > > > > I was at a AFSA NFPA 13 2013 ed seminar that was given by the AFA Virginia > Chapter > > that the Great Bob Caputo was the instructor and this came up. > > > > If I remember correctly he stated that sprinklers are not required, but > maybe it was > > during one of the times that doze off. > > > > Mike > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> > on behalf of Ben Young <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 28, 2018 12:06 PM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* concealed space less than 6" deep > > > > I feel like this has come up here before, but nothing came back when I did > searches through the archives. > > I've got a concealed space that needs sprinklers, but I don't know how I'm > going to put them in. > > (Light hazard office space under 2013 ED of 13) > > > > Wood TJI construction with an ACT suspended ceiling below it. > > From top of joist to face of ceiling is only 16.5" deep > > TJIs are 12" deep > > How the heck do I protect this space with only a 4.5" gap that will be > even smaller with the grid? > > Owner refuses to fill space with insulation inside trusses (for the time > being) > > CC spec app heads not required since the space is so small anyway, but I > think that also means I can't use CPVC, which would make hanging the pipe > parallel to the trusses a lot easier. > > Its obstructed construction, so I should be able to put pendent heads > below the bottom edge of the TJIs, but it will be no more than 2-3 inches > above the ceiling. > > I don't even know if that will work so worst case is I need heads inside > every truss space, right? > > The salesperson is telling me to use some weird combination of 8.15.1.2.3 > (which I believe only applied to double trusses ) and 8.15.1.2.5 (which > only applies to solid member construction and then you have 8.15.1.2.6 > directly below it calling out TJIs) > > > > This definitely feels like a catch-22. > > Thanks, > > > Benjamin Young > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler. > org > >
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