Thanks guys. The thing I want to make most clear is that I'm not trying to sell these things! I got into FDS in 2006 and it was not until about 2009 that I did anything with sprinklers- why? - I had been doing sprinklers for 30 years so I knew everything there was to know about them. I made tornados, taught myself some Thermodynamics, messed with smoke control, etc. But as I got better, I started modeling the rules in 13 for spacing, location, and position and my appreciation for them got deeper every year. I have said many times, "WOW! How could 13 have known before FDS went open source"? I can remember when a few things just 'clicked' for me over the last 40+ years, the latest was 6 or 8 years ago when Roland replied in his subtle and succinct why saying something like, 'the momentum of the ceiling jet will carry it under the beam'. Before that I had just thought about the heat rising straight up and banking straight down. The video is me having figured out why heat collectors not only didn't work but definitely hindered activation-- even the old Potter-Roemer 'dust pans' :).
I do feel a responsibility for what I post here-- But I know I'll be slapped down if I get out of line-- it's why I refrain from 'helping' anybody off Forum. Thanks again, Brad -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Kyle.Montgomery Sent: Friday, July 06, 2018 10:21 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Sidewalls in Partial Soffits While I understand the reason why we’re hesitant to say that something won’t work because it hasn’t been tested and proven to work, in this case do we have good reason to believe that it would NOT work. I mean has it been tested and proven to fail? Understanding that it is impossible to test every scenario, and even more difficult to adequately address every scenario in the standard, aren't we entering into the gray area where fire modeling and engineering judgements are required and quite useful? I have no problem with Travis saying he wouldn't want to "put his liability and career on the line", but if you found someone who was willing, who knew what they were talking about, and had the appropriate level of professional expertise (initials after their name) then maybe it would be OK. Or is the consensus that this actually would not operate properly and thus should not be done? I'm always interested in both what we can substantiate through code, and also what we think will actually happen in real life. -Kyle M -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Friday, July 6, 2018 8:10 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Sidewalls in Partial Soffits If you'd like, I will actually help you write a PI where the substantiation is: "I know what I'm talking about". That's an interesting video to be sure but I think the TC is going to need a little more than a fire model video before making such a significant change in best practices. A few questions: What's the area of the deflector, errrrr director? Is or should the area be relative to sprinkler deflector distance and sprinkler RTI? Most important, why do we need this? Code development includes consideration for empirical, theoretical, scientific, forensic and also (importantly) practical aspects of a design or product technology. Two more questions: How will the designers and owners of the built environment react to "heat directors"? And especially, what are we fixing if we incorporate this concept into the standard? When properly designed, installed and maintained sprinklers (as per the status quo) are extraordinarily effective at what they are supposed to do. I got really good advice from our State Fire Marshal a few years ago when I was entrusted to chair a task group related to CA adoption of the IRC sprinkler provisions. At that time I was advised not to make code for the sake of making code. Always ask first, "What are we fixing?" In this case, I'm sure that most stakeholders and knowledgeable users of the standard would agree that it's not broken. Manufacturers have spent millions for dollars in full scale fire testing to assess how sprinklers react to heat and the influences of structure and other intrusions into the horizontal movement of the byproduct layers along the ceiling. I'm satisfied with the data bases and listings we have available to help guide the committee with regard to installation practices. Can we still learn? Of course, but information has to be vetted and affirmed through a multi-level process before it's ready for public consumption. We can't just stick do-dads onto buildings to speed up sprinklers - it will be vigorously opposed by developers and owners and frankly, I wouldn't want them in my building either. We can't just say "I know what I'm talking about" because while that may work in your office it won't work in the rooms where proposals are heard. And note that my issue isn't even with the substance of your concept here, it's with the dismissive comment about "the standard". A couple years ago, you suggested that it was time to vote all the stodgy old TC members off and get new ones who, I assumed, you would find more forward thinking in some fashion. Besides the fact that TC members aren't voted for or against (except by the chair of the subject committee) and can't be removed except for failure to participate and REALLY bad behavior, your suggestion failed to recognize that for all its faults (and there are more than a couple), NFPA's consensus process works REALLY well, especially considering that most (not all, but the vast majority) of TC members spend money out of their own pockets to be part of the process. While the relative anonymity of the Forum may empower you to speak up in a way that you think you can't in a face-to-face venue, it doesn't relieve you of a certain degree of accountability, right? Given that I can think of at least a dozen TC members off the top of my head who subscribe to and participate in the Forum, perhaps you'll be more substantive and constructive when talking about changes to the standards in the future. SL -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Friday, July 06, 2018 5:22 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Sidewalls in Partial Soffits Jerry, it should go without saying but I'll say it anyway-- If Roland says the intent of the Standard is that the soffit goes the full length of the cabinets then of course it should, so your first instinct was correct. Roland's response to an activation question here years ago is what got me started on the road to being able say I know what I'm talking about (Steve). In fact it led to this Forum post with a link to a you tube video called 'heat collector vs heat director' (Travis): https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.mail-2Darchive.com_sprinklerforum-40lists.firesprinkler.org_msg38124.html&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=Sjz9Pq8UMMJYRlj_e7Id6_itu42ngYsMC3g0T7djs8k&s=dLfrRh3vUHut27bBWEbph7kTEETI1TTxvkHweEx0VxE&e= (In the Temperature frames I forgot to LOAD the particles for display at activation, but if you zoom in just right you can see the bulb disappear). Also Steve, I had to accept a long time ago I was too unconfident, undependable, inconsistent, and slow thinking to make a good voting member of any TC, ever!! (I use this Forum for my Public Input because I am not afraid of being wrong or admitting how much I don’t know). Brad -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2018 7:58 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Sidewalls in Partial Soffits Activation is my forte Steve, I know what I'm talking about. Brad Quoting Steve Leyton <[email protected]>: > I'll bet the "standard" is quaking in its boots. > > What, exactly, do you find lacking or out of place about this > standard you vaguely refer to? That it doesn't make provisions for > these types of obstructions to sprinkler discharge (which baffles and > so-called heat collectors most certainly are) or that it doesn't a > prescription for how to install objects that have been proven to delay > the operation of sprinklers? > > For all the pseudo-combative comments you make about these > "standards", I have to wonder: have you ever made a proposal or a > public input? Ever applied to join a technical committee? Ever in > any fashion offered to work in any capacity as part of a solution to > some perceived problem with the standards? > > Assuming your answers to the preceding are no, no and no and seeing > that you're "ready to rumble", now's a great time to dive in ... > > Steve L. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2018 4:02 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Sidewalls in Partial Soffits > > I've never been so ready to rumble Travis, especially with a "standard". > > Brad > > Quoting Travis Mack <[email protected]>: > >> You can feel free to put your liability and career on the line for >> something like that. I don’t think it is supported in any code or >> standard. If I were doing the project in question I would say no. >> >> However some one could prove it wrong with a code or standard reference. >> >> Travis Mack, SET >> MFP Design, LLC >> "Follow" us on Facebook: >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.facebook.com >> _pages_MFP-2DDesign-2DLLC_92218417692&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_D >> IA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=Sjz9Pq8UMMJYRlj_e7 >> Id6_itu42ngYsMC3g0T7djs8k&s=nH_qQ-P1rNe4p_CQ_K9hsborbZ3cHkW9RAHCJQXI- >> x0&e= >> Send large files to MFP Design via: >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.hightail.com >> _u_MFPDesign&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uO >> yS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=Sjz9Pq8UMMJYRlj_e7Id6_itu42ngYsMC3g0T7djs8k >> &s=2Hq-YrQ0tJ-VMedz0ygaLdjPmkXxMC4pN-nZ1Yh8Xeg&e= >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jul 5, 2018, at 3:14 PM, [email protected] wrote: >>> >>> I agree "heat collectors" are useless for pendents Travis. >>> I think this is because they were installed horizontal. If they were >>> installed vertical, they would be "heat directors", causing the >>> ceiling jet to dip down and pop the head. That's what we have here. >>> >>> Brad >>> >>> Quoting Travis Mack <[email protected]>: >>> >>>> This seems like no different than a “heat collector” for pendents. >>>> Which we all know those are useless. >>>> >>>> Travis Mack, SET >>>> MFP Design, LLC >>>> "Follow" us on Facebook: >>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.facebook.c >>>> om_pages_MFP-2DDesign-2DLLC_92218417692&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2Clc >>>> J0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=Sjz9Pq8UMMJY >>>> Rlj_e7Id6_itu42ngYsMC3g0T7djs8k&s=nH_qQ-P1rNe4p_CQ_K9hsborbZ3cHkW9R >>>> AHCJQXI-x0&e= Send large files to MFP Design via: >>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.hightail.c >>>> om_u_MFPDesign&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqud >>>> h6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=Sjz9Pq8UMMJYRlj_e7Id6_itu42ngYsMC3g0T >>>> 7djs8k&s=2Hq-YrQ0tJ-VMedz0ygaLdjPmkXxMC4pN-nZ1Yh8Xeg&e= >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Jul 5, 2018, at 2:46 PM, [email protected] wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Great point about what's not in the code Jerry- I see only WIDTH >>>>> verbiage - nothing about length! >>>>> >>>>> Your AHJ mileage may vary. >>>>> >>>>> Brad >>>>> >>>>> Quoting Jerry Van Kolken <[email protected]>: >>>>> >>>>>> I have soffits over cabinets. The GC is asking if they can do a >>>>>> partial soffit just at the sidewall location to pop over the >>>>>> cabinet instead of the entire cabinet length. Logically I'm >>>>>> thinking this is a no, but not sure I have any code verbiage to >>>>>> indicate either way. Is there a reference I can look at. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This is project is turning into a really look at the code, or >>>>>> more what's not stated in the code. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jerry Van Kolken >>>>>> >>>>>> Millennium Fire Protection Corp. >>>>>> >>>>>> 2950 San Luis Rey Rd. >>>>>> >>>>>> Oceanside, CA 92058 >>>>>> >>>>>> (760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firespri >>>>> nkler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfirespr&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQL >>>>> IuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=Sj >>>>> z9Pq8UMMJYRlj_e7Id6_itu42ngYsMC3g0T7djs8k&s=6-_u7SU22PCJwERy-_zkHI >>>>> yQ83MdgbPm6ZndIJssOkk&e= >>>>> inkler.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprink >>> ler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprin&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIu >>> Inh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=Sjz9Pq >>> 8UMMJYRlj_e7Id6_itu42ngYsMC3g0T7djs8k&s=oMcB7YknFvulqMBhQryFOrBbgnYU >>> mabqgfxZzl2lqvQ&e= >>> kler.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkle > r.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkl&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuIn > h2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=Sjz9Pq8UMM > JYRlj_e7Id6_itu42ngYsMC3g0T7djs8k&s=tJC-fd2eUHSCtwr3o8dfiBmU8EPOCecKWc > PZmV_HICQ&e= er.org _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkle > r.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkl&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuIn > h2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=Sjz9Pq8UMM > JYRlj_e7Id6_itu42ngYsMC3g0T7djs8k&s=tJC-fd2eUHSCtwr3o8dfiBmU8EPOCecKWc > PZmV_HICQ&e= > er.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=Sjz9Pq8UMMJYRlj_e7Id6_itu42ngYsMC3g0T7djs8k&s=YKx7jvTOQDp7wJP8EkMlvaeWTlFMo4Vzh4syfpQxL9Y&e= _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=Sjz9Pq8UMMJYRlj_e7Id6_itu42ngYsMC3g0T7djs8k&s=YKx7jvTOQDp7wJP8EkMlvaeWTlFMo4Vzh4syfpQxL9Y&e= _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=Sjz9Pq8UMMJYRlj_e7Id6_itu42ngYsMC3g0T7djs8k&s=YKx7jvTOQDp7wJP8EkMlvaeWTlFMo4Vzh4syfpQxL9Y&e= _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
