Ok guys keep it civil and on topic please… I think we have beaten this horse enough…
Thank you, Tom Noble American Fire Sprinkler Assn. Technical Programs Specialists 214-349-5965 x125 http://www.firesprinkler.org On Jul 16, 2018, 7:04 PM -0500, Steve Leyton <[email protected]>, wrote: > If George was still alive I wouldn't have had a chance to jump in. > > > > Steve Leyton > > (Sent from my phone; please excuse typos and voice text corruptions.) > > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: "Mark.Phelps" <[email protected]> > Date: 7/16/18 4:59 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: PRV after pump discharge control valve > > Second that!! > > Mark at Aero > 602 820-7894 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of Tom Duross > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 4:57 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: PRV after pump discharge control valve > > These are the times I miss George. He never thought he was the smartest guy > in the room, he just was. And never condescending, always available off > site, just an honest pot smokin deadhead who's seen more than most. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of Steve Leyton > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 7:46 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: PRV after pump discharge control valve > > Okay, you've got my attention. What formulas do you think I need to use, > besides the countless ones I already do? Do you think your (highly > theoretical) impeller formula is of some substantive use to me? How would it > add value to my firm's services? What metrics would it help me derive to > improve our product or life safety in general? Just because it's a > technical forum and you throw down a bunch of alpha-numeric equations (that > may or may not be accurate), it doesn't add up automatically to a good > practice or even information of value; much of the time, it seems like you > need attention and you simply post these formulas because you like having > people comment on them. You've said as much yourself on this forum. > > For my sake, I absolutely don't need to see my opinions or own words in > print. When I contribute, I think most people would agree that I'm on > point, stay on topic and generally add to the conversation. I don't have a > problem with people not agreeing with me and I don't need credit for getting > stuff right and I'm really good about learning from my mistakes, which starts > with admitting when I'm wrong. I think I'm discriminating with my posts, > which I don't think that you are and this isn't the first time that you've > postulated regarding stuff that makes no sense. Like your comment that > sprinklers likely wouldn't have saved most or all of the lives lost in the > Ghost Ship fire. > > All I'm saying is to be more thoughtful and stop posting for the sake of > posting. What happens is that a thread like this one goes off on a tangent > and people disengage. I'll bet I'm not the only one that doesn't want to > have to guess whether the next email is going to be worth opening or not. > The original question was very simple and about whether or not there was a > restriction about putting a PRV downstream of a pump discharge control valve. > Please tell me how the formula v=2*pi*r*f gets me to a solution on this > issue. And while you're at it maybe throw out another formula for the spool > piece you say we'll need ... supposedly, I need to start using more formulas. > > SML > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of [email protected] > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 4:26 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: PRV after pump discharge control valve > > One of these days you are going to have to start using some formulas and > numbers youself Steve, because like you said, this is a technical forum, not > a who can blow their own horn the loudest forum. > > Brad > @ > Quoting Steve Leyton <[email protected]>: > > > Have you ever noticed that a single pump series can be applied across > > what seem like an incredibly wide spectrum of flows and > > pressures? That’s because they can be paired with a variety of > > drivers of different HP ratings and multitude of impellers. AND THEN > > LISTED AS ASSEMBLIES. The idea that we have a plug-and-play impeller > > variety pack or that we’ll buy one for now and one for when junior > > grows out of this year’s school clothes (and put it in cabinet in the > > pump room with a sign that says, “Install Me at Some > > Point”) is not reality based. As this is a technical forum and since > > we’re using up bytes and storage space on AFSA’s server, I just think > > it’s a good idea to keep to reality-based stuff, like widely accepted > > good and best practices, listed products, > > prescriptive codes, and whatnot. It’s one thing to promote a > > theory or design concept that’s truly outside-the-box, but this is > > not in that context. I reiterate the question, who’s going to do > > the work? Why are we talking about such an extreme measure when > > there’s already a simple solution on the table? > > > > Failures in sprinkler systems occur when a link in the chain of events > > fails. And it’s usually a simplistic link. Rebuilding a listed fire > > pump – or even talking about it those terms - is pretty > > radical surgery when all the patient needs is a splint. Keep in > > mind Anthony, pumps fail WAY more frequently than pressure reducing > > valves, especially if they’re not meticulously maintained. > > > > SL > > > > From: Sprinklerforum > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > Fire Design > > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 3:36 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: PRV after pump discharge control valve > > > > Brad said to check w/ the pump manufacturer so I don't know what the > > all the keyboard punching is about. I thought it was a nice outside > > the box approach. The manufacturer offers different size impellers for > > a reason. Feasible or not I don't know - call the pump guys to find > > out. > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > [https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ipmcdn.avast.com > > _images_icons_icon-2Denvelope-2Dtick-2Dround-2Dorange-2Danimated-2Dno- > > 2Drepeat-2Dv1.gif&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=dLwiR71i_XhSFqam > > 3ZLeaFLiQJ3cDTUB0ReB4-yDDcg&m=StU-ogetV9AXKRB6TaylmZ5fiCqNRfLNu86UXJtD > > 7Zc&s=Je0SuHRYlFZ4DI3sJq2SpShiSxHJFY17vZF2z9JOmMA&e=]<https://urldefen > > se.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.avast.com_sig-2Demail-3Futm-5 > > Fmedium-3Demail-26utm-5Fsource-3Dlink-26utm-5Fcampaign-3Dsig-2Demail-2 > > 6utm-5Fcontent-3Dwebmail-26utm-5Fterm-3Dicon&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2C > > lcJ0_DIA&r=dLwiR71i_XhSFqam3ZLeaFLiQJ3cDTUB0ReB4-yDDcg&m=StU-ogetV9AXK > > RB6TaylmZ5fiCqNRfLNu86UXJtD7Zc&s=SSmbqHZBdQr9w25Y3u7NzdDnEY2ivLjsD-BKI > > Kq8Vy8&e=> > > > > Virus-free. > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.avast.com&d=Dw > > IGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=dLwiR71i_XhSFqam3ZLeaFLiQJ3cDTUB0ReB4- > > yDDcg&m=StU-ogetV9AXKRB6TaylmZ5fiCqNRfLNu86UXJtD7Zc&s=-ROGj8aZL-tRQJrY > > 8qN9QnzK9m4hZaZfbPE672ldrqk&e=<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur > > l?u=https-3A__www.avast.com_sig-2Demail-3Futm-5Fmedium-3Demail-26utm-5 > > Fsource-3Dlink-26utm-5Fcampaign-3Dsig-2Demail-26utm-5Fcontent-3Dwebmai > > l-26utm-5Fterm-3Dlink&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=dLwiR71i_XhS > > Fqam3ZLeaFLiQJ3cDTUB0ReB4-yDDcg&m=StU-ogetV9AXKRB6TaylmZ5fiCqNRfLNu86U > > XJtD7Zc&s=VkiEIz1O2xOyh5_FMCpBH5wCvrtAAodKxXICdMm3_RY&e=> > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 1:54 PM, Steve Leyton > > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > You gotta let go of this Brad. You're now having a visual fantasy > > about what can only be described as a reach at best or more > > critically, a bad practice. Please go back to thermal layers or > > something ... this is ridiculous. Have you given the future impeller > > an actual name for the plate, or would that be a blank that's just put > > in the cabinet so it can be appropriately named by whoever swaps it > > out? > > > > I have gotten calls from people (including attorneys) who have found > > and to varying extents vetted me using web searches. I recently > > got hired to present a seminar series for the FD of one of the largest > > cities in the USA because they found me on the web; they told me that > > my name association with AFSA and NFPA conventions caught their eye > > and they also saw excerpts of posts I've made to the forum regarding > > standpipes. You should Google "Brad Casterline > > Sprinklerforum" ... it's long list of hits. The stuff we say on > > this forum isn't confined to the subscribers on the list-server. > > > > So if/when somebody finds this stream-of-consciousness and decides to > > use the now-and-future impeller basis of design, and then they > > get sued ... you can send your formulas to their defense team I > > suppose. I'm intentionally being histrionic and sarcastic but it's > > to make a point: We need to promote best practices here. This is an > > exchange of ideas, yes. But we cannot allow the conversation to turn > > to the purely speculative or the convenient or two an unsafe > > level of compromise. This association, this forum and we as > > industry activists are the means to setting the standard of care > > higher. We strive do it right, ESPECIALLY when nobody's watching. > > > > I think it's time to put the impeller-in-a-cabinet idea into a > > permanent sleep. > > > > > > SML > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum > > [mailto:[email protected]<mailto:sprinkle > > [email protected]>] On Behalf Of > > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 1:19 PM > > To: > > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected] > > esprinkler.org> > > Subject: Re: PRV after pump discharge control valve Thank you Kyle, it > > means a great deal to me for you to say. > > I was curious about the application too, and saw a 1250 gpm, 2600 rpm > > with a range of 69 psi based solely on impeller diameter. > > Both impellers would need to be purchased and certified up front, and > > every one having signed off on the idea. > > I even imagined a note on the enlarged pump room plan, "mount future > > impeller and name plate in locked cabinet next to spare sprinkler > > cabinet". > > > > Brad > > Quoting "Kyle.Montgomery" > > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>: > > > >> I found the formula interesting. > >> > >> Also, I didn't think that Brad was suggesting the fitter would modify > >> the impeller (were you?). I assumed he was just showing that it was > >> another possibility to explore (to be performed by pump rep). > >> You wouldn't modify the existing impeller, but replace it with a new > >> one. > >> > >> I do know it is possible (and not entirely uncommon) to have the pump > >> manufacturer "trim" the impeller to make small modifications to the > >> pump curve, to dial in the pressure. Not sure if it would work for > >> the kind of pressure differences the O.P. is looking at. > >> > >> If it is feasible, I think that (generally speaking) it might be > >> considered a preferable approach to the PRV. Less parts and pieces, > >> etc. However, the nice thing about a PRV is you can really dial in > >> the pressure and you get that wide, flat pressure curve. But there > >> are drawbacks as well. > >> > >> Kyle Montgomery > >> > >> Aero Automatic Sprinkler Co. > >> 21605 N. Central Ave. > >> Phoenix, AZ 85024 > >> Direct: 623.580.7820 > >> Cell: 602.763.4736 > >> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected] > > esprinkler.org> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkle > > r.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZ > > QLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=dLwiR71i_XhSFqam3ZLeaFLiQJ3cDTUB0ReB4-yDDcg&m=StU- > > ogetV9AXKRB6TaylmZ5fiCqNRfLNu86UXJtD7Zc&s=W5YPSKJz3RjsOo8n7UIeRj42dieD > > Qm6AeQiwzTYcVWs&e= _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected] > > esprinkler.org> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkle > > r.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZ > > QLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=dLwiR71i_XhSFqam3ZLeaFLiQJ3cDTUB0ReB4-yDDcg&m=StU- > > ogetV9AXKRB6TaylmZ5fiCqNRfLNu86UXJtD7Zc&s=W5YPSKJz3RjsOo8n7UIeRj42dieD > > Qm6AeQiwzTYcVWs&e= > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=dLwiR71i_XhSFqam3ZLeaFLiQJ3cDTUB0ReB4-yDDcg&m=StU-ogetV9AXKRB6TaylmZ5fiCqNRfLNu86UXJtD7Zc&s=W5YPSKJz3RjsOo8n7UIeRj42dieDQm6AeQiwzTYcVWs&e= > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=dLwiR71i_XhSFqam3ZLeaFLiQJ3cDTUB0ReB4-yDDcg&m=StU-ogetV9AXKRB6TaylmZ5fiCqNRfLNu86UXJtD7Zc&s=W5YPSKJz3RjsOo8n7UIeRj42dieDQm6AeQiwzTYcVWs&e= > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=dLwiR71i_XhSFqam3ZLeaFLiQJ3cDTUB0ReB4-yDDcg&m=StU-ogetV9AXKRB6TaylmZ5fiCqNRfLNu86UXJtD7Zc&s=W5YPSKJz3RjsOo8n7UIeRj42dieDQm6AeQiwzTYcVWs&e= > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
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