Ahhh Nuts, coordination, project management, collaboration, ........mere words on paper. The design work we get is awful. I’m working on one right now for permits where the sprinkler plans call for a pump, ok so back to the architect for a pump room, where’s the electrical, ok so back to the engineer, where’s the sprinkler supervision and fire alarm, ok so this is pending.........building departments should never ever be caught in this mess. And that’s just me the building and plumbing guys is also going around. Add in the convoluted subjective code stuff.....somethings gotta give. Your above ceiling construction issues most likely trace back to a similar circumstance
John Drucker Fire and Electrical Code Official New Jersey. John Drucker ________________________________ From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> on behalf of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 23:46 To: BRUCE VERHEI; [email protected] Cc: Travis Mack Subject: Re: [External] Re: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping Exactly. Travis Mack, SET Engineering Manager MFP Design [email protected] [email protected] 480-505-9271 x700 NEW MOBILE : (480) 272-2471 Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D&reserved=0> On May 21, 2020, at 8:45 PM, BRUCE VERHEI via Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> wrote: I can’t comment on the situation above the ceiling. Is this project, ‘bidder design’, shorthand for ‘building and systems design is by committee that never meets? Best. Bruce Verhei On May 21, 2020 at 3:04 PM Ron Greenman via Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> wrote: I'm going to do a stupid thing and pretend to be logical. Does the plan or spec anywhere call for rated cable in these spaces? Would rated cable reduce the amount of combustibles enough to obviate the need for the sprinklers? If either of these hold true then I would think the fight is with the electrical or alarm or data or some sparky contractor. If adding sprinklers is just the band-aid for a problem that shouldn't have been allowed to exist in the first place... Ron Greenman [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> 253.576.9700 The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-) On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:39 AM Mitchell, Scott via Sprinklerforum < [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: It’s one of the unintended consequences of government - at any level. Unfortunately, the only way to possibly effect improvement is to present grievances to superiors, then to the city council if necessary. Good luck and keep us updated From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 1:46 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>; 'John Drucker' <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; Mitchell, Scott <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: RE: [External] Re: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping Here is the latest on this: Inspector is going to require a data cabling drawing showing all of the cables dispersed through the school. He then wants an FPE to sign off that the amount of cabling is not an issue to trigger the requirement to sprinkler the concealed space. A bit more was learned. It is not plenum rated cable and the inspector wanted plenum rated cable, as I understand it. So, by forcing sprinklers, it makes the issue of plenum rated cable go away. I may not have that fully understood as it was a 4th party conversation relay. But, it seems, as usual, there is a lot more to the story. The inspector is still really pushing that the concealed space needs sprinklers. However, if this all goes away as not being required, this is where I feel that the AHJ should be held for monetary damages they cause. For all that have been involved and the man hours dedicated to it, they have cost several thousands of $$ with zero repercussions. This is one of my major pet peeves. From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 6:26 AM To: John Drucker <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Cc: Travis Mack <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>; Mitchell, Scott <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: Re: [External] Re: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping The appeal process is in place as well. The problem is the sprinkler contractor is being threatened with liquidated damages if the inspector won’t allow cover today in a particular area. This is where badge heavy inspectors become a real problem. The inspector states he will accept only 3 options: 1 - there can only be a single ABS pipe and no other combustibles in the area. 2 - He will allow ABS and data cabling if a FPE will provide the maximum quantities of combustibles in the space since NFPA is vague. He wants a way to quantify the quantities. The contractor is arguing it is impossible for the sprinkler to police the quantities of other trades and to quantify them. 3 - provide full upright protection across the 280k sq ft space above the ceiling, including redesign and calculations. Beams are about 10’ on center and 28” deep plus fireproofing. So, the best they can get is 150 sq ft per sprinkler. It will likely average out at 100 or so. The GC is trying to state the sprinkler contractor would have to absorb the added costs. All of this for some ABS vent piping and typical data cabling you see in a school. I have a feeling this one is going to get pretty ugly. Travis Mack, SET Engineering Manager MFP Design [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> 480-505-9271 x700 NEW MOBILE : (480) 272-2471 Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D&reserved=0> On May 21, 2020, at 6:15 AM, John Drucker <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Or as in many jurisdictions, file an appeal. John Drucker ________________________________ From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> on behalf of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 09:01 To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Cc: Travis Mack; Mitchell, Scott Subject: Re: [External] Re: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping That is processing 👍🏼 Travis Mack, SET Engineering Manager MFP Design [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> 480-505-9271 x700 NEW MOBILE : (480) 272-2471 Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D&reserved=0> On May 21, 2020, at 6:00 AM, Mitchell, Scott via Sprinklerforum <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: You might try an informal interpretation from John August Denhart and company. ☺ Scott Mitchell From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of J H via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 11:43 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Cc: J H <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [External] Re: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping You're going to have to get your ammo, your formal interpretations and get an audience with the little princess's boss - the king <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon> <image002.jpg> Virus-free. www.avast.com<https://wwwavast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link> On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 5:46 PM Rod DiBona via Sprinklerforum <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Maybe look at the contract for dispute resolution. Hopefully push past the GC to the owner for their decision before it goes to mediation etc. Check the contract that the GC has with the owner that the sprinkler sub is likely tied to. May be a case where this tie helps. At the end of the day the owner pays the bill. Would help to understand the GC’s contract. Is it a firm fixed? GC plus fee? How is the contingency money handled? Split with the GC? 100% back to owner. I would know these things before going this route. Good luck, this clearly isn’t right. Rod DiBona Chief Operating Officer R.F.P.G Rapid Fire Protection Group 1530 Samco Road Rapid City, SD 57702 Office-605-348-2342 Cell- 605-391-3553 www.rapidfireinc.com<http://www.rapidfireinccom/> <image001.jpg> <image002.jpg> From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 6:36 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; 'Matt Grise' <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; 'Rocci 3 Cetani' <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: RE: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping Seems like we have an AHJ not backing down. We had the reviewing engineer for the sprinkler plans write a letter stating that the criteria is in compliance with NFPA and that limited quantities of combustibles are permitted above the ceiling and still classify it as non-combustible. This is data cabling and waste vent piping that the inspector is drawing a line in the sand to provide protection above the ceilings of a large high school. I have been working getting informal interpretations from various entities to support our position. GC is telling sprinkler contractor it was design build so no change order. But, specs say to put sprinklers above ceiling if structure is combustible or if steel beams are not fire proofed. In this project, the steel beams are fire proofed. The contract “intent” drawings call out to add sprinklers below stairs if combustible but no where else in the project. There is nothing to indicate sprinklers would be required above the ceilings. A similar school built the next jurisdiction over does not have sprinklers above the ceiling. I have been told other projects in this jurisdiction have the same construction and same situation with no sprinklers above the ceiling. One of them referenced is a hospital. I’m sure the data cabling in a hospital is far greater than a high school. This one is going to get interesting. And probably pretty ugly From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 2:55 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; 'Matt Grise' <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; 'Rocci 3 Cetani' <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: RE: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping Yeah. That is the conundrum we are in. From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of Rocci 3 Cetani via Sprinklerforum Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 2:55 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Cc: Rocci 3 Cetani <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; Matt Grise <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: RE: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping Only problem is its vague and I think the committee did that on purpose. “minor quantities” is up for too much interpretation Rocci Cetani III, CET Senior Designer Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A Morgan Hill, CA 93037 P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.1010 F-(408) 776-1590 [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> www.norcalfire.com<http://www.norcalfire.com/> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it may contain confidential information belonging to the sender. The information is intended only for the use of individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone to arrange for return of the documents. From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 2:52 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Cc: Matt Grise <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: RE: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping The NFPA13 annex and handbook address this directly. NFPA 13 A8.15.1.2.1 “minor quantities of combustible materials such as but not limited to cabling, nonmetallic plumbing piping… …should not typically be viewed as requiring sprinklers.” Matt From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 4:39 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping We have a fairly good sized school project. Plumber ran ABS drain piping. Electrician has some cabling not in conduit. Inspector is stating the space is now combustible and requires sprinklers above all ceiling areas. Has anyone run into this and how was it resolved? Drawings and specs do not indicate sprinklers required above ceiling spaces. But the GC is trying to force it down the contractor’s throat if it is required and of course it is now holding up the job. <image003.jpg><https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.mfpdesign.com%2f&c=E,1,SttrIB9CfFxeMf-7pVmoE0k6_pscjwXmxhUTVEZGWqOrfVv_RPWQIfQUKROuTyjZCm-rOVW8fmWBaZ3y_z2Vqz49Ef7R7Xs_g_pgCVhDupBL3AWdHQD4Ndlu0rU,&typo=1> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET Engineering Manager MFP Design 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 NEW EXTENSION: 480-505-9271 ext. 700 NEW MOBILE: 480-272-2471 [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> www.mfpdesign.com<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.mfpdesign.com&c=E,1,rsfoiKZVjp0r4kS3D_wBk7ruQf4VYZLmhmkorPry67P4-UrK2tOI7g7FSH3jptAu9GNB7afW3q5NVVj-jOX4ldaCw1oexbBuMbLfKwuiDVE,&typo=1> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D&reserved=0> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D&reserved=0> “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” Need/Want a faster way to check material pricing? 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