Exactly. Travis Mack, SET Engineering Manager MFP Design [email protected] [email protected] 480-505-9271 x700 NEW MOBILE : (480) 272-2471
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign > On May 21, 2020, at 8:45 PM, BRUCE VERHEI via Sprinklerforum > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I can’t comment on the situation above the ceiling. Is this project, ‘bidder > design’, shorthand for ‘building and systems design is by committee that > never meets? > > Best. > > Bruce Verhei >> On May 21, 2020 at 3:04 PM Ron Greenman via Sprinklerforum >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> I'm going to do a stupid thing and pretend to be logical. Does the plan or >> spec anywhere call for rated cable in these spaces? Would rated cable reduce >> the amount of combustibles enough to obviate the need for the sprinklers? If >> either of these hold true then I would think the fight is with the >> electrical or alarm or data or some sparky contractor. If adding sprinklers >> is just the band-aid for a problem that shouldn't have been allowed to exist >> in the first place... >> >> >> Ron Greenman >> >> [email protected] >> >> 253.576.9700 >> >> The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner >> Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director >> (1942-) >> >> >> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:39 AM Mitchell, Scott via Sprinklerforum < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> It’s one of the unintended consequences of government - at any level. >> Unfortunately, the only way to possibly effect improvement is to present >> grievances to superiors, then to the city council if necessary. Good luck >> and keep us updated. >> >> >> >> From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On >> Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum >> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 1:46 PM >> To: [email protected]; 'John Drucker' >> <[email protected]> >> Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G <[email protected]>; Mitchell, >> Scott <[email protected]> >> Subject: RE: [External] Re: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping >> >> >> >> Here is the latest on this: >> >> >> >> Inspector is going to require a data cabling drawing showing all of the >> cables dispersed through the school. He then wants an FPE to sign off that >> the amount of cabling is not an issue to trigger the requirement to >> sprinkler the concealed space. >> >> >> >> A bit more was learned. It is not plenum rated cable and the inspector >> wanted plenum rated cable, as I understand it. So, by forcing sprinklers, >> it makes the issue of plenum rated cable go away. I may not have that fully >> understood as it was a 4th party conversation relay. But, it seems, as >> usual, there is a lot more to the story. The inspector is still really >> pushing that the concealed space needs sprinklers. >> >> >> >> However, if this all goes away as not being required, this is where I feel >> that the AHJ should be held for monetary damages they cause. For all that >> have been involved and the man hours dedicated to it, they have cost several >> thousands of $$ with zero repercussions. This is one of my major pet >> peeves. >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On >> Behalf Of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum >> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 6:26 AM >> To: John Drucker <[email protected]> >> Cc: Travis Mack <[email protected]>; >> [email protected]; Mitchell, Scott >> <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [External] Re: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping >> >> >> >> The appeal process is in place as well. The problem is the sprinkler >> contractor is being threatened with liquidated damages if the inspector >> won’t allow cover today in a particular area. >> >> >> >> This is where badge heavy inspectors become a real problem. The inspector >> states he will accept only 3 options: >> >> >> >> 1 - there can only be a single ABS pipe and no other combustibles in the >> area. >> >> >> >> 2 - He will allow ABS and data cabling if a FPE will provide the maximum >> quantities of combustibles in the space since NFPA is vague. He wants a way >> to quantify the quantities. The contractor is arguing it is impossible for >> the sprinkler to police the quantities of other trades and to quantify them. >> >> >> >> 3 - provide full upright protection across the 280k sq ft space above the >> ceiling, including redesign and calculations. Beams are about 10’ on center >> and 28” deep plus fireproofing. So, the best they can get is 150 sq ft per >> sprinkler. It will likely average out at 100 or so. The GC is trying to >> state the sprinkler contractor would have to absorb the added costs. >> >> >> >> All of this for some ABS vent piping and typical data cabling you see in a >> school. >> >> >> >> I have a feeling this one is going to get pretty ugly. >> >> Travis Mack, SET >> >> Engineering Manager >> >> MFP Design >> >> [email protected] >> >> [email protected] >> >> 480-505-9271 x700 >> >> NEW MOBILE : (480) 272-2471 >> >> >> >> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On May 21, 2020, at 6:15 AM, John Drucker <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> Or as in many jurisdictions, file an appeal. >> >> >> >> John Drucker >> >> >> >> From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> on >> behalf of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum >> <[email protected]> >> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 09:01 >> To: [email protected] >> Cc: Travis Mack; Mitchell, Scott >> Subject: Re: [External] Re: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping >> >> >> >> That is processing 👍🏼 >> >> >> >> Travis Mack, SET >> >> Engineering Manager >> >> MFP Design >> >> [email protected] >> >> [email protected] >> >> 480-505-9271 x700 >> >> NEW MOBILE : (480) 272-2471 >> >> >> >> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On May 21, 2020, at 6:00 AM, Mitchell, Scott via Sprinklerforum >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> You might try an informal interpretation from John August Denhart and >> company. J >> >> >> >> Scott Mitchell >> >> >> >> From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On >> Behalf Of J H via Sprinklerforum >> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 11:43 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Cc: J H <[email protected]> >> Subject: [External] Re: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping >> >> >> >> You're going to have to get your ammo, your formal interpretations and get >> an audience with the little princess's boss - the king >> >> >> >> <image002.jpg> >> >> Virus-free. www.avast.com >> >> >> >> On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 5:46 PM Rod DiBona via Sprinklerforum >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Maybe look at the contract for dispute resolution. Hopefully push past the >> GC to the owner for their decision before it goes to mediation etc. Check >> the contract that the GC has with the owner that the sprinkler sub is likely >> tied to. May be a case where this tie helps. At the end of the day the owner >> pays the bill. Would help to understand the GC’s contract. Is it a firm >> fixed? GC plus fee? How is the contingency money handled? Split with the GC? >> 100% back to owner. I would know these things before going this route. Good >> luck, this clearly isn’t right. >> >> >> >> >> >> Rod DiBona >> >> Chief Operating Officer >> >> R.F.P.G >> >> Rapid Fire Protection Group >> >> 1530 Samco Road >> >> Rapid City, SD 57702 >> >> Office-605-348-2342 >> >> Cell- 605-391-3553 >> >> www.rapidfireinc.com >> >> >> >> <image001.jpg> >> >> <image002.jpg> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On >> Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum >> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 6:36 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G <[email protected]>; 'Matt Grise' >> <[email protected]>; 'Rocci 3 Cetani' <[email protected]> >> Subject: RE: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping >> >> >> >> Seems like we have an AHJ not backing down. We had the reviewing engineer >> for the sprinkler plans write a letter stating that the criteria is in >> compliance with NFPA and that limited quantities of combustibles are >> permitted above the ceiling and still classify it as non-combustible. This >> is data cabling and waste vent piping that the inspector is drawing a line >> in the sand to provide protection above the ceilings of a large high school. >> I have been working getting informal interpretations from various entities >> to support our position. >> >> >> >> GC is telling sprinkler contractor it was design build so no change order. >> But, specs say to put sprinklers above ceiling if structure is combustible >> or if steel beams are not fire proofed. In this project, the steel beams >> are fire proofed. The contract “intent” drawings call out to add sprinklers >> below stairs if combustible but no where else in the project. There is >> nothing to indicate sprinklers would be required above the ceilings. A >> similar school built the next jurisdiction over does not have sprinklers >> above the ceiling. I have been told other projects in this jurisdiction >> have the same construction and same situation with no sprinklers above the >> ceiling. One of them referenced is a hospital. I’m sure the data cabling >> in a hospital is far greater than a high school. >> >> >> >> This one is going to get interesting. And probably pretty ugly. >> >> >> >> From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On >> Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum >> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 2:55 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G <[email protected]>; 'Matt Grise' >> <[email protected]>; 'Rocci 3 Cetani' <[email protected]> >> Subject: RE: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping >> >> >> >> Yeah. That is the conundrum we are in. >> >> >> >> From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On >> Behalf Of Rocci 3 Cetani via Sprinklerforum >> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 2:55 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Cc: Rocci 3 Cetani <[email protected]>; Matt Grise <[email protected]> >> Subject: RE: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping >> >> >> >> Only problem is its vague and I think the committee did that on purpose. >> “minor quantities” is up for too much interpretation >> >> >> >> Rocci Cetani III, CET >> >> Senior Designer >> >> Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III >> >> >> >> Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. >> >> 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A >> >> Morgan Hill, CA 93037 >> >> P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.1010 >> >> F-(408) 776-1590 >> >> >> >> >> >> [email protected] >> >> www.norcalfire.com >> >> >> >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it may >> contain confidential information >> >> belonging to the sender. The information is intended only for the use of >> individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or >> the employee or agent responsible to deliver this message to the intended >> recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or taking of >> any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly >> prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please >> immediately notify us by telephone to arrange for return of the documents. >> >> >> >> From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On >> Behalf Of Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum >> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 2:52 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Cc: Matt Grise <[email protected]> >> Subject: RE: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping >> >> >> >> The NFPA13 annex and handbook address this directly. >> >> >> >> NFPA 13 A8.15.1.2.1 “minor quantities of combustible materials such as but >> not limited to cabling, nonmetallic plumbing piping… …should not typically >> be viewed as requiring sprinklers.” >> >> >> >> Matt >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On >> Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum >> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 4:39 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G <[email protected]> >> Subject: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping >> >> >> >> We have a fairly good sized school project. Plumber ran ABS drain piping. >> Electrician has some cabling not in conduit. Inspector is stating the space >> is now combustible and requires sprinklers above all ceiling areas. Has >> anyone run into this and how was it resolved? >> >> >> >> Drawings and specs do not indicate sprinklers required above ceiling spaces. >> But the GC is trying to force it down the contractor’s throat if it is >> required and of course it is now holding up the job. >> >> >> >> <image003.jpg> >> >> >> >> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET >> >> Engineering Manager >> >> MFP Design >> >> 3356 E Vallejo Ct >> >> Gilbert, AZ 85298 >> >> NEW EXTENSION: 480-505-9271 ext. 700 >> >> NEW MOBILE: 480-272-2471 >> >> [email protected] >> >> [email protected] >> >> www.mfpdesign.com >> >> >> >> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign >> >> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack >> >> >> >> “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low >> price is forgotten.” >> >> >> >> Need/Want a faster way to check material pricing? Build a material quote? >> Check availability ? 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