Taylor, Old plan reviewers never die…they just go crazy and lose their minds. I had a dream last night trying to find a solution to resolve this issue. Here’s another penny of my thoughts so total of three cents.
3 - I think you should ask the plan reviewer what his intent is for the flow switch. If he wants it just to protect the owner from potential water damage from a break in the supply pipe AND the parking garage is not subject to significant water damage OR a security patrol is provided, then maybe he might consider a signed letter from the owner, architect, or engineer accepting responsibility and liability for any water damage in lieu of the flow switch. Since this “deficiency” is not a life safety issue, I might accept a letter, but I never had anyone write me one of that nature. I generally got what I asked for when I convinced them that it was in their best interest to follow my “suggestions”. Since the backflow preventer should already have valve supervision, the additional cost of a VPA with pressure switch is not too extreme and the waterflow signal could be treated as a supervisory signal instead of alarm. Now just my three cents. Rick Matsuda > On Aug 5, 2022, at 6:28 PM, Taylor Schumacher <tay...@sfsprinkler.com> wrote: > > Thanks for the two cents, Rick. This project does have the water service > stub in a less than ideal spot where the underground installer saved some > money and left some of the “supply” piping for the sprinkler contractor to > run. The area in question is in an above grade, enclosed and heated garage > serving an apartment. > > There is a back flow preventer with gate valves at this water service stub > before the long run to the pump flange so there is a way to shut off water > inside the building. > > My initial thoughts are that the alarm on the controller may trigger false > alarms and would not reliably work in the manner we are hoping. I am hoping > my pump supplier can walk me through the way that would work when he is back > from vacation. > >> Taylor Schumacher ET > > >>> On Aug 5, 2022, at 4:46 PM, Rick Matsuda <rick26...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >> >> I’m hope I’m not too late to jump into this conversation. As an old plan >> reviewer for the insurance industry and for a municipality, I have two >> issues with the suction piping arrangement. >> >> 1 - I can’t remember if it’s code or part of the old insurance rules, but I >> did not allow supply piping to run through a building unsupervised. We >> wanted notification in the event of a catastrophic break in the pipe to >> limit any water damage. The instance that I remember involved a riser >> manifold that was moved about 100-feet from where the spigot piece entered >> the building because the engineer and architect screwed up. This was not a >> pump suction pipe so they installed a flow switch and a control >> valve at the spigot. >> I think it’s written somewhere that it’s “good engineering practice” to make >> the supply pipe from the spigot the the risers as “short as possible”. >> For your pump arrangement, I guess a VPA with a pressure switch on the bell >> line would be okay. >> You mentioned that the pipe runs about 200-feet through a parking garage so >> maybe water damage wouldn’t be a big issue so the flow switch might not be >> needed unless it’s an underground parking structure. I think a control valve >> still should be installed at the spigot. >> >> 2 - Is this an unheated parking garage and is there any possibility of >> freeze damage for the suction pipe? >> >> Just my two cents. >> Rick Matsuda >> >>> On Aug 5, 2022, at 2:23 PM, Taylor Schumacher <tay...@sfsprinkler.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Kyle, I’m not sure how that would alert someone to flowing water, other >>> than count the water that flowed. What am I missing? >>> >>>> Taylor Schumacher ET >>> >>> >>>> On Aug 5, 2022, at 2:06 PM, Kyle.Montgomery <kmontgom...@aerofire.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Also not free, but what about utilizing a backflow preventer with a >>>> detector assembly? Not an additional one, just in lieu of the one that’s >>>> planned already. (I’m guessing there is one planned somewhere, right?) >>>> >>>> -Kyle M >>>> >>>> From: Taylor Schumacher <tay...@sfsprinkler.com> >>>> Sent: Friday, August 5, 2022 10:51 AM >>>> To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers >>>> <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> >>>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] Re: WFD In Pump Suction Line >>>> >>>> Those are often the things that people who make suggestions don’t have to >>>> consider. >>>> >>>> >>>> Taylor Schumacher ET >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Matt Grise <m...@afpsprink.com> >>>> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2022 11:56 AM >>>> To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers >>>> <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> >>>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: WFD In Pump Suction Line >>>> >>>> Are you going to be able to get a change order from the owner to cover >>>> this suggestion from the plan reviewer? >>>> >>>> Matt >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Anthony Carrizosa <anth...@archerconstruction.com> >>>> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2022 11:54 AM >>>> To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers >>>> <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> >>>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: WFD In Pump Suction Line >>>> >>>> Taylor >>>> Every time the jockey pump turns on it will ring the bell? Unless you use >>>> a very large retard chamber. >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Taylor Schumacher <tay...@sfsprinkler.com> >>>> Sent: Friday, August 5, 2022 8:44 AM >>>> To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers >>>> <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> >>>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: WFD In Pump Suction Line >>>> >>>> Ding Ding Ding (pun intended) I think we have a winner. >>>> >>>> >>>> Taylor Schumacher ET >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Vincent J. Como <vjc...@waynefire.com> >>>> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2022 10:41 AM >>>> To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers >>>> <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> >>>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: WFD In Pump Suction Line >>>> >>>> If pressure isn’t the issue…I vote water motor gong >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> >>>> <image001.png> >>>> Vinnie Como >>>> Commercial Designer >>>> Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers, Inc. ® >>>> 3226 Cherry Palm Dr, Tampa, FL 33619 >>>> ph: 813-682-1657 cell: 954-650-2812 >>>> Ocoee | Jacksonville | Deerfield Beach | Tampa | Ft Myers | Concord, NC | >>>> Raleigh, NC >>>> <image002.png> >>>> >>>> <image003.png> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Taylor Schumacher <tay...@sfsprinkler.com> >>>> Sent: Friday, August 5, 2022 11:32 AM >>>> To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers >>>> <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> >>>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: WFD In Pump Suction Line >>>> >>>> I used a similar phrase during the phone call to point me to the section >>>> where it is required. >>>> >>>> He was/is unable to supply code references for that requirement and >>>> pointed it out as such-it is merely a recommendation as he is concerned >>>> about damage to the piping or fittings causing water to flow without any >>>> alarms or notifications. It was never a concern about adequate suction >>>> pressure. >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for all the responses! >>>> >>>> >>>> Taylor Schumacher ET >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Ken Wagoner <k...@parsleyconsulting.com> >>>> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2022 10:05 AM >>>> To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers >>>> <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>; Taylor Schumacher >>>> <tay...@sfsprinkler.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [Sprinklerforum] WFD In Pump Suction Line >>>> >>>> Taylor, >>>> >>>> After reading your original post, and several of the responses, >>>> particularly that of Chris Dorn, I'm prompted to share my thoughts. >>>> Is the AHJ looking for supervision of the appropriate suction pressure in >>>> that feed to the fire pump? I'm sure you understand this - however the >>>> AHJ may not - a 'paddle type' switch is only going to provide notification >>>> if the line is flowing. It won't report any information in a static >>>> condition. >>>> >>>> If the concern is indeed to supervise the suction pressure at a certain >>>> level in the supply to the fire pump a pressure switch would be better >>>> suited for this purpose. The switch settings could be established at the >>>> required suction pressure, and any reduction in that pressure would >>>> activate the switch, and transmit the supervisory notice to the fire pump >>>> controller or fire alarm panel, whichever is preferred. >>>> >>>> If it is only supervision of actual flow in the line as others have >>>> pointed out there are better choices than a paddle type switch. It's also >>>> worth noting that the pump controller may already have the supervision the >>>> AHJ is suggesting. >>>> Finally, as one other poster has noted - if there is a section of the >>>> applicable code or standard which requires supervision of the suction line >>>> to a fire pump, then I would request direction to the section. If it's >>>> there, then I'll do what it requires, as I want to follow the 'rules' as >>>> closely as possible. If it's not there, and it's just the AHJ's >>>> preference, then what are we talking about? >>>> >>>> That concept has guided most of my work, which I've boiled down to 'prove >>>> it.' My late father's take on this was, "Put up, or shut up." >>>> >>>> sincerely, >>>> >>>> Ken Wagoner, SET >>>> Parsley Consulting >>>> 500 West Mechanic Street >>>> Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235 >>>> Phone: (760) 745-6181 >>>> Visit the website >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________________________ >>>> SprinklerForum mailing list: >>>> https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>> sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org >>> >>> _________________________________________________________ >>> SprinklerForum mailing list: >>> https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org >> >> _________________________________________________________ >> SprinklerForum mailing list: >> https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org > > _________________________________________________________ > SprinklerForum mailing list: > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org
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