Thanks for the two cents, Rick. This project does have the water service stub in a less than ideal spot where the underground installer saved some money and left some of the “supply” piping for the sprinkler contractor to run. The area in question is in an above grade, enclosed and heated garage serving an apartment.
There is a back flow preventer with gate valves at this water service stub before the long run to the pump flange so there is a way to shut off water inside the building. My initial thoughts are that the alarm on the controller may trigger false alarms and would not reliably work in the manner we are hoping. I am hoping my pump supplier can walk me through the way that would work when he is back from vacation. Taylor Schumacher ET On Aug 5, 2022, at 4:46 PM, Rick Matsuda <rick26...@gmail.com> wrote: I’m hope I’m not too late to jump into this conversation. As an old plan reviewer for the insurance industry and for a municipality, I have two issues with the suction piping arrangement. 1 - I can’t remember if it’s code or part of the old insurance rules, but I did not allow supply piping to run through a building unsupervised. We wanted notification in the event of a catastrophic break in the pipe to limit any water damage. The instance that I remember involved a riser manifold that was moved about 100-feet from where the spigot piece entered the building because the engineer and architect screwed up. This was not a pump suction pipe so they installed a flow switch and a control valve at the spigot. I think it’s written somewhere that it’s “good engineering practice” to make the supply pipe from the spigot the the risers as “short as possible”. For your pump arrangement, I guess a VPA with a pressure switch on the bell line would be okay. You mentioned that the pipe runs about 200-feet through a parking garage so maybe water damage wouldn’t be a big issue so the flow switch might not be needed unless it’s an underground parking structure. I think a control valve still should be installed at the spigot. 2 - Is this an unheated parking garage and is there any possibility of freeze damage for the suction pipe? Just my two cents. Rick Matsuda On Aug 5, 2022, at 2:23 PM, Taylor Schumacher <tay...@sfsprinkler.com> wrote: Kyle, I’m not sure how that would alert someone to flowing water, other than count the water that flowed. What am I missing? Taylor Schumacher ET On Aug 5, 2022, at 2:06 PM, Kyle.Montgomery <kmontgom...@aerofire.com> wrote: Also not free, but what about utilizing a backflow preventer with a detector assembly? Not an additional one, just in lieu of the one that’s planned already. (I’m guessing there is one planned somewhere, right?) -Kyle M From: Taylor Schumacher <tay...@sfsprinkler.com> Sent: Friday, August 5, 2022 10:51 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] Re: WFD In Pump Suction Line Those are often the things that people who make suggestions don’t have to consider. Taylor Schumacher ET From: Matt Grise <m...@afpsprink.com<mailto:m...@afpsprink.com>> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2022 11:56 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: WFD In Pump Suction Line Are you going to be able to get a change order from the owner to cover this suggestion from the plan reviewer? Matt From: Anthony Carrizosa <anth...@archerconstruction.com<mailto:anth...@archerconstruction.com>> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2022 11:54 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: WFD In Pump Suction Line Taylor Every time the jockey pump turns on it will ring the bell? Unless you use a very large retard chamber. From: Taylor Schumacher <tay...@sfsprinkler.com<mailto:tay...@sfsprinkler.com>> Sent: Friday, August 5, 2022 8:44 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: WFD In Pump Suction Line Ding Ding Ding (pun intended) I think we have a winner. Taylor Schumacher ET From: Vincent J. Como <vjc...@waynefire.com<mailto:vjc...@waynefire.com>> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2022 10:41 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: WFD In Pump Suction Line If pressure isn’t the issue…I vote water motor gong Thanks, <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2fwww.waynefire.com*2f&c=E,1,YAuGiAvh8Bd8tInNL1AcYkwYqe9h7PiJQ9M0R4GO2x8ZDtXiEvQaj0J_kPRSv1Z4K-EclvmiWW-J86oBTIz6tHf9zHiKp4WFVStoy0jfJyzCy_qgvn1Scg,,&typo=1__;JSUlJQ!!Ba8_KKAT!M9UNxAXu263yE-UFsVmaWJujCDpCEjVEk4XTsEseaGdr1rqiCQz5dYZz4Nd1WBQ2El_HniMVj9Cy8R33wZkzJg$> 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<image002.png><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2fwww.waynefire.com*2f&c=E,1,5-oU3GGUO7qW5kCWm8v-8ZKTOrVGsW0iIOyD72q6hQo7ljv7OmRPROoecHEse3VFj8p_fJ7AM9k8Uds-BQ1izn0N0DWvF3Y28yfuSQNRaq0KLg,,&typo=1__;JSUlJQ!!Ba8_KKAT!M9UNxAXu263yE-UFsVmaWJujCDpCEjVEk4XTsEseaGdr1rqiCQz5dYZz4Nd1WBQ2El_HniMVj9Cy8R2AC5zYkw$> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.facebook.com/Wayne-Automatic-Fire-Sprinklers-Inc-122998935990/__;!!Ba8_KKAT!M9UNxAXu263yE-UFsVmaWJujCDpCEjVEk4XTsEseaGdr1rqiCQz5dYZz4Nd1WBQ2El_HniMVj9Cy8R3WYraJHA$> <image003.png> From: Taylor Schumacher <tay...@sfsprinkler.com<mailto:tay...@sfsprinkler.com>> Sent: Friday, August 5, 2022 11:32 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: WFD In Pump Suction Line I used a similar phrase during the phone call to point me to the section where it is required. He was/is unable to supply code references for that requirement and pointed it out as such-it is merely a recommendation as he is concerned about damage to the piping or fittings causing water to flow without any alarms or notifications. It was never a concern about adequate suction pressure. Thanks for all the responses! Taylor Schumacher ET From: Ken Wagoner <k...@parsleyconsulting.com<mailto:k...@parsleyconsulting.com>> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2022 10:05 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>; Taylor Schumacher <tay...@sfsprinkler.com<mailto:tay...@sfsprinkler.com>> Subject: Re: [Sprinklerforum] WFD In Pump Suction Line Taylor, After reading your original post, and several of the responses, particularly that of Chris Dorn, I'm prompted to share my thoughts. * Is the AHJ looking for supervision of the appropriate suction pressure in that feed to the fire pump? I'm sure you understand this - however the AHJ may not - a 'paddle type' switch is only going to provide notification if the line is flowing. It won't report any information in a static condition. * If the concern is indeed to supervise the suction pressure at a certain level in the supply to the fire pump a pressure switch would be better suited for this purpose. The switch settings could be established at the required suction pressure, and any reduction in that pressure would activate the switch, and transmit the supervisory notice to the fire pump controller or fire alarm panel, whichever is preferred. * If it is only supervision of actual flow in the line as others have pointed out there are better choices than a paddle type switch. It's also worth noting that the pump controller may already have the supervision the AHJ is suggesting. Finally, as one other poster has noted - if there is a section of the applicable code or standard which requires supervision of the suction line to a fire pump, then I would request direction to the section. If it's there, then I'll do what it requires, as I want to follow the 'rules' as closely as possible. If it's not there, and it's just the AHJ's preference, then what are we talking about? That concept has guided most of my work, which I've boiled down to 'prove it.' My late father's take on this was, "Put up, or shut up." sincerely, Ken Wagoner, SET Parsley Consulting 500 West Mechanic Street Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235 Phone: (760) 745-6181 Visit the website<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2fwww.parsleyconsulting.com*2f&c=E,1,Y5zKJKPEh1mBEBqSR-VE9cUKl5y-eyP8BpvmE_5j9ZqW2eJbNphYzrCMBZ-2YuX6d-RRkHI4gQ1FV-cvOeCfRC58uZS9NiToZv2mx7909oCqLvCW_n5hDHeK&typo=1__;JSUlJQ!!Ba8_KKAT!M9UNxAXu263yE-UFsVmaWJujCDpCEjVEk4XTsEseaGdr1rqiCQz5dYZz4Nd1WBQ2El_HniMVj9Cy8R3xyRwMrw$> _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org
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