I would like to chime in on this thought because this fact is often overlooked
when the great debate of pipe wall thickness occurs. I can only provide
anecdotal evidence of pipe longevity so I’ll be of no help in your quest, but
I’ll offer this:
4” Sch 10 is 118 pounds per 21 ft. stick.
4” Sch 40 is 227 pounds per 21 ft. stick.
If you’ve ever swung and hung pipe, you’ll know that the differences in weight
with wall thickness or pipe size changes is a BFD. Maybe less so in steel
buildings where you can run equipment around. But this really affects installs
and people’s backs in wood frame buildings.
Taylor Schumacher, ET
From: tston...@comcast.net <tston...@comcast.net>
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2022 8:20 AM
To: 'Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers'
<sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Steel pipe failure rates
Todd,
I will check with NFPA.
Given the Choice would you rather manhandle 4” & 6” schedule 10 or sched 40 all
day long?
As a Designer no I don’t really care what the schedule is as long as I know
this when I start the design.
Happy Thanksgiving.
Regards,
G. Tim Stone
G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC
NICET Level III Engineering Technician
Fire Protection Sprinkler Design
and Consulting Services
117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452
CELL: (802) 373-0638
tston...@comcast.net<mailto:tston...@comcast.net>
From: Fpdcdesign <fpdcdes...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2022 8:29 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers
<sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Steel pipe failure rates
Tim,
You would probably have to reach out to NFPA and/or trade associations for
statistics. Suffice it to say that if it was significant, Sch 10 would not be
approved. The only failures I am aware of have other contributing circumstances
such as corrosive environments, non potable water, etc.
If the owner wants only schedule 40 and he is willing to pay the price, what is
the problem? There are 120+ year old schedule 40 systems still in service.
Maybe this is what he/she is looking for.
On Nov 23, 2022 at 8:06 AM, <Tstone52<mailto:tston...@comcast.net>> wrote:
Steve and others,
Thank you for your responses.
Does anyone have or heard of Failure Rates related to Schedule 10 steel pipe. I
am not talking about MIC or Corrosion failures. I am dealing with a large
customer with many properties all with sprinkler systems, new and existing who
is not allowing schedule 10. These are not dry pipe system failures either.
I am going to try and meet with this owner’s representative to hear his
concerns directly. It would be great if I could present some facts to him.
Regards,
G. Tim Stone
G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC
NICET Level III Engineering Technician
Fire Protection Sprinkler Design
and Consulting Services
117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452
CELL: (802) 373-0638
tston...@comcast.net<mailto:tston...@comcast.net>
From: Steve Leyton
<st...@protectiondesign.com<mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2022 1:47 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers
<sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Steel pipe failure rates
We’ve seen our first pieces of Sch. 10 fail from MIC recently, but that’s a
different ballgame and NONE of the parent steel alloys factor that in their CRR
ratings. I’d like offer another angle if I may, because this thread has been
in the context of contractor and product practices only so far. Please keep
in mind that for the owner of a building, there’s more to issues like this than
just means and methods.
We are the EOR and specifier for a LOT of publicly bid work, and for our
institutional clients have been specifying 10 and 40 only for 25 year. I’m
sure that Sch. 7 advocates won’t necessarily like or agree with that approach,
but unlike most consulting engineering firms, we have NEVER been the target of
a claim or lawsuit. In fact, we’ve only had to put our insurance company on
notice of a potential claim one time in 27 years. Needless to say, I’m proud
of that of record and from our current perspective if it ain’t broke don’t fix
it.
I want to emphasize that there is NOTHING wrong with Sch. 7 and I’m not
suggesting that it’s inferior. When I was in contracting, we used a lot of
Sch. 7. In fact, I still remember the day that a rep from American Tube &
Conduit brought in a piece of DynaFlow for the first time – we were amazed.
But the fact is that this material is more subject to oxygen cell corrosion and
MIC. As a consultant, corrosion control service provider and also as an expert
witness, I’ve managed and observed the removal of a lot of leaky pipes over the
years and have only seen Sch. 7 being subject to the various types of
irreparable damage that necessitates R&R.
If maintained at a high level from the time it’s commissioned into service,
there’s no reason not to use it but… that’s the wildcard. Developers and
owners of the built environment seem to only hate one thing more than fire
sprinklers, and that’s having to ITM their fire sprinklers. Until such time
as we can say that our universal sprinklered environment is aggressively
maintained in good condition, this issue will not go away and it’s fair for
owners to acknowledge the realities of the situation and specify 10 and 40
only, IMHO.
Steve Leyton, President
Protection Design and Consulting
T | 619.255.8964 x 102 |
www.protectiondesign.com<http://www.protectiondesign.com/>
2851 Camino Del Rio South | Suite 210 | San Diego, CA 92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training
From: tston...@comcast.net<mailto:tston...@comcast.net>
<tston...@comcast.net<mailto:tston...@comcast.net>>
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2022 10:14 AM
To: 'Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers'
<sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Steel pipe failure rates
Only that the owner is worried about pipe failures using schedule 10. I don’t
know where is information is coming from. In my 34 years in this industry I
have never heard or seen Schedule 10 pipe failures on water filled sprinkler
systems unless they freeze. The only other scenario is the use of Schedule 10
on dry pipe systems which we all are learning is for the short term unless you
are charging that pipe with Nitrogen.
Regards,
G. Tim Stone
G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC
NICET Level III Engineering Technician
Fire Protection Sprinkler Design
and Consulting Services
117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452
CELL: (802) 373-0638
tston...@comcast.net<mailto:tston...@comcast.net>
From: Fpdcdesign <fpdcdes...@gmail.com<mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2022 1:01 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers
<sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Steel pipe failure rates
Did the specifying engineer state why he/she wants only Sch 40?
On Nov 22, 2022 at 12:14 PM, <Skyler Bilbo<mailto:sbi...@wenteplumbing.com>>
wrote:
I always use the Corrosion Resistance Ratio (CRR) argument. Basically, the
thickness of schedule 10 piping is greater than or equal to the thickness of
the first exposed thread of threaded schedule 40. Using this argument,
schedule 10 should theoretically last at least as long as threaded schedule 40.
You can't use this argument if they call for grooved schedule 40.
Thanks,
Skyler Bilbo
[Image removed by sender.]
1700 S. Raney Street
Effingham, IL 62401
217-819-6404 Direct
217-347-7315 Fax
sbi...@wenteplumbing.com<mailto:sbi...@wenteplumbing.com>
www.wenteplumbing.com<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.wenteplumbing.com&c=E,1,tqcCTUvTsVZ3GxrxQwwnJS5PiAdOLl2-h5687N6OeKBS_QefaDkU9H_TjiNVFd77lsU4n1Dj4JHMXQ1ydiJQnvIABPNXx85WkDcEvzxXO8NC5bWFobILpDM6x02K&typo=1>
On Tue, Nov 22, 2022 at 10:14 AM
<tston...@comcast.net<mailto:tston...@comcast.net>> wrote:
Are there any studies comparing the failure rates of Schedule 10 steel pipe
versus schedule 40 steel pipe used on wet water filled sprinkler systems?
I have a client who is not allowing the use of schedule 10 Main piping 2 ½” and
larger on their projects. All piping used has to be schedule 40.
Thank you in advance.
Regards,
G. Tim Stone
G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC
NICET Level III Engineering Technician
Fire Protection Sprinkler Design
and Consulting Services
117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452
CELL: (802) 373-0638
tston...@comcast.net<mailto:tston...@comcast.net>
_________________________________________________________
SprinklerForum mailing list:
https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2flists.firesprinkler.org%2flist%2fsprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org&c=E,1,-cZa30wgEkO0P4nNy4MvQmtJ5Kvt2m3NH76I1XXz1F3O49Qy6BdnzcMA2n2BdHPHeR5PN3fZiKrgAp1koErvohrDAfW2SnBn-lJoa-3e-VESVpegmmQK&typo=1>
To unsubscribe send an email to
sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org>
_________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum
mailing list:
https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2flists.firesprinkler.org%2flist%2fsprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org&c=E,1,xoOClOg0q-fIYBWwurjfS4bjkgLSDROGVvdFzz6h6VUxTWkoQKC-AnK4spRU89pMADppifeIAKTpepLp1gSREOhNkpb4N_oYtHtrqKKsXxoUNJm7&typo=1>
To unsubscribe send an email to
sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org>
_________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum
mailing list:
https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To
unsubscribe send an email to
sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org>
_________________________________________________________
SprinklerForum mailing list:
https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org
To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org
