There is no question that Sch 10 is easier to handle than Sch 40. It is going cost more to purchase and install Sch 40 mains. If the owner is OK with that, he can require it. Once Code issues are met, the owner can ask for anything he wants beyond that. Codes are a minimum.
I am not sure what the owner’s objection to Sch 10 pipe are. Perhaps if he was aware of the cost difference, he might reconsider. Remember who you are working for. > > On Nov 23, 2022 at 9:22 AM, <Tstone52 (mailto:tston...@comcast.net)> wrote: > > > > > > Todd, > > > > > > > > I will check with NFPA. > > > > > > > > Given the Choice would you rather manhandle 4” & 6” schedule 10 or sched 40 > all day long? > > > > As a Designer no I don’t really care what the schedule is as long as I know > this when I start the design. > > > > > > > > Happy Thanksgiving. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > G. Tim Stone > > > > > > > > G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC > > > > NICET Level III Engineering Technician > > > > Fire Protection Sprinkler Design > > > > and Consulting Services > > > > > > > > 117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452 > > > > CELL: (802) 373-0638 > > > > tston...@comcast.net (mailto:tston...@comcast.net) > > > > > > > > > > > From: Fpdcdesign <fpdcdes...@gmail.com> > Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2022 8:29 AM > To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers > <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Steel pipe failure rates > > > > > > > > > > > Tim, > > > > > > > > > > > > You would probably have to reach out to NFPA and/or trade associations for > statistics. Suffice it to say that if it was significant, Sch 10 would not be > approved. The only failures I am aware of have other contributing > circumstances such as corrosive environments, non potable water, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > If the owner wants only schedule 40 and he is willing to pay the price, what > is the problem? There are 120+ year old schedule 40 systems still in service. > Maybe this is what he/she is looking for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 23, 2022 at 8:06 AM, <Tstone52 (mailto:tston...@comcast.net)> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve and others, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your responses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone have or heard of Failure Rates related to Schedule 10 steel > > pipe. I am not talking about MIC or Corrosion failures. I am dealing with a > > large customer with many properties all with sprinkler systems, new and > > existing who is not allowing schedule 10. These are not dry pipe system > > failures either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am going to try and meet with this owner’s representative to hear his > > concerns directly. It would be great if I could present some facts to him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > G. Tim Stone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC > > > > > > > > NICET Level III Engineering Technician > > > > > > > > Fire Protection Sprinkler Design > > > > > > > > and Consulting Services > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452 > > > > > > > > CELL: (802) 373-0638 > > > > > > > > tston...@comcast.net > > (mailto:tston...@comcast.net) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Leyton <st...@protectiondesign.com > > (mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com)> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2022 1:47 PM > > To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers > > <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > > (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> > > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Steel pipe failure rates > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We’ve seen our first pieces of Sch. 10 fail from MIC recently, but that’s a > > different ballgame and NONE of the parent steel alloys factor that in their > > CRR ratings. I’d like offer another angle if I may, because this > > thread has been in the context of contractor and product practices only so > > far. Please keep in mind that for the owner of a building, there’s > > more to issues like this than just means and methods. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are the EOR and specifier for a LOT of publicly bid work, and for our > > institutional clients have been specifying 10 and 40 only for 25 year. > > I’m sure that Sch. 7 advocates won’t necessarily like or agree with that > > approach, but unlike most consulting engineering firms, we have NEVER been > > the target of a claim or lawsuit. In fact, we’ve only had to put our > > insurance company on notice of a potential claim one time in 27 years. > > Needless to say, I’m proud of that of record and from our current > > perspective if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to emphasize that there is NOTHING wrong with Sch. 7 and I’m not > > suggesting that it’s inferior. When I was in contracting, we used a lot > > of Sch. 7. In fact, I still remember the day that a rep from American > > Tube & Conduit brought in a piece of DynaFlow for the first time – we > > were amazed. But the fact is that this material is more subject to > > oxygen cell corrosion and MIC. As a consultant, corrosion control > > service provider and also as an expert witness, I’ve managed and observed > > the removal of a lot of leaky pipes over the years and have only seen Sch. > > 7 being subject to the various types of irreparable damage that > > necessitates R&R. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If maintained at a high level from the time it’s commissioned into service, > > there’s no reason not to use it but… that’s the wildcard. Developers > > and owners of the built environment seem to only hate one thing more than > > fire sprinklers, and that’s having to ITM their fire sprinklers. Until > > such time as we can say that our universal sprinklered environment is > > aggressively maintained in good condition, this issue will not go away and > > it’s fair for owners to acknowledge the realities of the situation and > > specify 10 and 40 only, IMHO. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Leyton, President > > > > > > > > Protection Design and Consulting > > > > > > > > T | 619.255.8964 x 102 | www.protectiondesign.com > > (http://www.protectiondesign.com/) > > 2851 Camino Del Rio South | Suite 210 | San Diego, CA > > 92108 > > Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | > > Training > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: tston...@comcast.net (mailto:tston...@comcast.net) > > <tston...@comcast.net (mailto:tston...@comcast.net)> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2022 10:14 AM > > To: 'Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers' > > <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > > (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> > > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Steel pipe failure rates > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Only that the owner is worried about pipe failures using schedule 10. I > > don’t know where is information is coming from. In my 34 years in this > > industry I have never heard or seen Schedule 10 pipe failures on water > > filled sprinkler systems unless they freeze. The only other scenario is the > > use of Schedule 10 on dry pipe systems which we all are learning is for the > > short term unless you are charging that pipe with Nitrogen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > G. Tim Stone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC > > > > > > > > NICET Level III Engineering Technician > > > > > > > > Fire Protection Sprinkler Design > > > > > > > > and Consulting Services > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452 > > > > > > > > CELL: (802) 373-0638 > > > > > > > > tston...@comcast.net > > (mailto:tston...@comcast.net) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Fpdcdesign <fpdcdes...@gmail.com (mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com)> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2022 1:01 PM > > To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers > > <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > > (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> > > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Steel pipe failure rates > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did the specifying engineer state why he/she wants only Sch 40? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 22, 2022 at 12:14 PM, <Skyler Bilbo > > > (mailto:sbi...@wenteplumbing.com)> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I always use the Corrosion Resistance Ratio (CRR) argument. Basically, > > > the thickness of schedule 10 piping is greater than or equal to the > > > thickness of the first exposed thread of threaded schedule 40. Using > > > this argument, schedule 10 should theoretically last at least as long as > > > threaded schedule 40. You can't use this argument if they call for > > > grooved schedule 40. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Skyler Bilbo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1700 S. Raney Street > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Effingham, IL 62401 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 217-819-6404 Direct > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 217-347-7315 Fax > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sbi...@wenteplumbing.com (mailto:sbi...@wenteplumbing.com) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.wenteplumbing.com > > > (https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.wenteplumbing.com&c=E,1,tqcCTUvTsVZ3GxrxQwwnJS5PiAdOLl2-h5687N6OeKBS_QefaDkU9H_TjiNVFd77lsU4n1Dj4JHMXQ1ydiJQnvIABPNXx85WkDcEvzxXO8NC5bWFobILpDM6x02K&typo=1) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 22, 2022 at 10:14 AM <tston...@comcast.net > > > (mailto:tston...@comcast.net)> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are there any studies comparing the failure rates of Schedule 10 steel > > > > pipe versus schedule 40 steel pipe used on wet water filled sprinkler > > > > systems? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a client who is not allowing the use of schedule 10 Main piping > > > > 2 ½” and larger on their projects. All piping used has to be schedule > > > > 40. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you in advance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > G. Tim Stone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NICET Level III Engineering Technician > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fire Protection Sprinkler Design > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and Consulting Services > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CELL: (802) 373-0638 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tston...@comcast.net > > > > (mailto:tston...@comcast.net) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > > > SprinklerForum mailing list: > > > > > > > > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > > > > > > > > (https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2flists.firesprinkler.org%2flist%2fsprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org&c=E,1,-cZa30wgEkO0P4nNy4MvQmtJ5Kvt2m3NH76I1XXz1F3O49Qy6BdnzcMA2n2BdHPHeR5PN3fZiKrgAp1koErvohrDAfW2SnBn-lJoa-3e-VESVpegmmQK&typo=1) > > > > To unsubscribe send an email to > > > > sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org > > > > (mailto:sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum > > > mailing list: > > > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > > > > > > (https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2flists.firesprinkler.org%2flist%2fsprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org&c=E,1,xoOClOg0q-fIYBWwurjfS4bjkgLSDROGVvdFzz6h6VUxTWkoQKC-AnK4spRU89pMADppifeIAKTpepLp1gSREOhNkpb4N_oYtHtrqKKsXxoUNJm7&typo=1) > > > To unsubscribe send an email to > > > sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org > > > (mailto:sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum > > mailing list: > > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > > To unsubscribe send an email to > > sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org > > (mailto:sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org) > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum > mailing list: > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org >
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