Kevin,
Good summary of reasonable advice.
One additional factor is the use of a chimney (which currently is
essential for sufficient draft in a natural draft TLUD with J-seed
fuel).
Of course, testing is also needed about any toxins that come out of a
chimney, and issues of dilution. And then come scrubbers and filters
and other things that can also make the difference between acceptance
and non-acceptance.
--
Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Known to some as: Dr. TLUD Doc Professor
Phone (USA): 309-452-7072 SKYPE: paultlud Email: [email protected]
Quoting Kevin <[email protected]>:
Dear Paul
Subject: [Stoves] Testing Jatropha-seed stoves for toxic emissions
The nose is a great analytical tool. If you sniff the products of
combustion from a TLUD running properly on non-toxic fuel, they will
have a pleasant, or at least, not unpleasant smell. Pn the other
hand, when not quite working properly, such as at starting, there
can be visible smoke and an unpleasant smell. However, with
non-toxic fuels, the "smell" is not particularily toxic. On the
other hand, if Jatropha is used and if it is at a stage of
combustion where it is making a visibly smokey fire, it is probably
dangerous through containing non-consumed J-toxins.
There are lots of references advocating "Don't go near smoke from
burning Poison Ivy." The same rule would probably apply for J-Smoke.
"If you can smell J-Smoke, don't."
Thus, while a well operating TLUD may be perfectly safe on J-Fuel,
there may be a significant problem or hazard at start-up. Perhaps
teh simple solution is "When using J-Fuel, start it outside, and do
not contact smoke. Take inside only after there is no visible smoke."
Best wishes,
Kevin Chisholm
Content analysis details: (0.0 points)
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_SUMMARY_
Dear Tom and all,
Tom's message (below) raises two questions (each gets a separate
Subject line).
1. Testing for toxins in the emissions from the burning of whole
Jatropha seeds is a valid topic. By far, most testing of Jatropha
burning is of the OIL and not of the whole seeds. And therefore
even the combustion devices are not the same. One answer does
resolve the entire question.
2. TOXINS are NOT measured in the PEMS or other equipment
available to stovers. Toxins-testing needs specialized equipment.
Who has it and who will make it available or who will pay for
such testing? Some universities could have such equipment. Our
best hope is at the major centers that study Jatropha, but thus far
they are researching the J-oil and not the J-seed, and certainly
not in TLUD gasifiers.
3. Even with the equipment, the right situations need to be tested.
4. First, they need Jatropha seeds (available, but not easy to
get. If you need some, contact me about possible sources.)
5. Second, there are different ways and differnt devices that
could burn the whole seeds, and testing needs to match the
conditions of how the seeds would actually be combusted. A
smouldering pile of J-seeds does NOT have the same emissions (CO,
PM, and now "toxins") as a properly functioning TLUD-FA gasifier.
I specifically said FA (Forced Air) because we have such devices
ready for testing, but we do not yet (close, but not quite) for
TLUD-ND (natural draft).
6. Jatropha seeds as fuel are only the tip of the iceberg. The
bigger topic is "oil-rich biomass." (We will AVOID the food vs.
fuel debate by only dealing with true waste biomass that does not
feed humans or animals.) One example is cashew shells, which have
highly caustic oils and probably toxins.
7. I hope that this message gets passed on into other Listservs or
directly to places which could actually conduct (or facilitate with
payment) the testing of whole Jatropha seeds in TLUD gasifiers. On
this topic, I am here to help (because this is certainly a
TLUD-related topic), but it is far beyond my capabilities to
accomplish the needed testing.
8. I will bring this topic to the attention of each of the BEF
Stove Camps that will occur in areas with Jatropha production.
Opinion: J-seed stoves are in their infancy. The J-seed TLUDs are
not into households yet, so A) there is no need to slow down the
development of the stoves while waiting for test results, and B) it
is a great time to get the testing started before dissemination
gets started into households.
--
Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Known to some as: Dr. TLUD Doc Professor
Phone (USA): 309-452-7072 SKYPE: paultlud Email: [email protected]
Quoting Tom Miles <[email protected]>:
Crispin,
Good thoughts. The Jatropha discussion was "toxic" in that it stimulated
quite a lively debate. We probably got more heat from the discussion than
from the stove on a cold and slightly windy day. No pot. It clearly needs
some careful testing. Good project for Winter stove camp (this week?)
I didn't bring either of my testers. Unfortunately my TSI is in repair
(after burning it up testing a gasifier) and my Testo is in use at a steam
boiler. Stovers don't seem to carry them. I would have liked to have tested
the two Aprovecho charcoal stoves that were demonstrated.
Tom
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 8:28 PM
To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
Subject: Re: [Stoves] [Jatropha cake properties]
Dear Tom
Thanks to Tom, Dr Tom and Dr Paul
Did you put a pot on it? I am interested in whether or not the flames
touched the pot more than usual. That has to be judged by someone who knows
the stove and other fuels well. If the fuel is oilier, will it make the
flames longer to the point that they run along the pot creating more CO?
It may be that a J-seed stove needs a different flame path length to get
great performance.
Jes' thinkin'
Crispin
++++++++
Burning Jatropha seed in a Tom Reed Woodgas Stove at ETHOS 2011. No
emergency vehicles were called and no adverse symptoms were recorded by
observers. Greatest danger was that the seeds "pop" occasionally.
Thanks to Paul Anderson for the demonstration.
Tom Miles
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