Christina, Many people here in Vietnam use LPG. But this option is becoming increasingly expensive. When someone buys a gasifier to minimize this expense, I would not encourage them to remove the LPG stove. The LPG stove is quite useful if someone has to cook for just a few minutes. But when it comes to cooking an entire meal, here the little gasifier should be used. In my kitchen, there is a toaster oven, a rice cooker, a microwave, an LPG stove and a gasifier. When a lot of high-grade heat is required over an extended period of time, the gasifier makes the most sense.
Many thanks. Paul Olivier On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Christina Espinosa < [email protected]> wrote: > Hi Paul, > > Thanks for your comments. My point exactly was that we need to present > them with all options. Are you saying we should exclude LPG as an option? > That is what it sounds like. > > Best, > Christina > > On Mar 18, 2013, at 6:23 PM, Paul Olivier <[email protected]> wrote: > > Christina, > > See comments. > > On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 7:56 AM, Christina Espinosa < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Paul, >> >> First, I must say that LPG is really expensive in Vietnam. That is >> unfortunate that the cost to use it is so high. However, LPG is not this >> expensive all developing countries. >> >> It's my opinion, that to say we should not be including LPG as part of >> the solution is a bad step in the wrong direction. There is >> a preference from many families around the world to transition to using >> LPG, so who are we to say "no you shouldn't use it for cooking." I am >> guessing that most of us on the list use some type of fossil fuel for >> cooking right? Do each of us on the listserv use our preferred improved >> cookstove technology to cook each of our own meals everyday? Probably not. >> > > No one in developing or developed countries should be relying exclusively > on fossil fuels to cook meals. If we design stoves for poor people, we > should be the first in line to use them. > >> >> We surveyed 300 families here in Guatemala and 90% of our respondents >> using wood were interested in switching to using LPG. Of these respondents >> 76% of families could afford the monthly cost of LPG and a monthly payment >> for an LPG start-up package. >> >> Guatemala is a great example of a country that has many people that would >> prefer to use LPG. It doesn't make sense to exclude options for them to >> finance a LPG starter kit and have regular affordable access to LPG. >> > > Why promote the use of fossil fuels? > The price of bottled gas will continue to rise. > >> >> I think Kirk Smith might say it better than I could: >> >> "Does it make sense to ask the poor to take on novel devices and fuels >> that have never been tried elsewhere, because otherwise we may add a bit to >> GHG emissions or shorten the petroleum era by a few weeks? Shouldn’t it be >> those that produce the most GHG and have the resources and technology to do >> something about it who shoulder the burden of testing and using new low-GHG >> high efficiency technologies?" >> > > Yes, exactly. We rich people design stoves for poor people that we > ourselves would never use. We should be all be feverishly designing stoves > for use in the developed world. Why focus just on poor people? > > >> >> http://ehs.sph.berkeley.edu/krsmith/publications/02_smith_3.pdf >> >> We know that LPG can produce the desired health effects...so it doesn't >> make sense for us to label it as a rich persons fuel and exclude its >> potential for poor families to adopt it. >> > > But LPG is not the only option for poor people, especially poor people who > can barely afford LPG. > > >> >> There is not one single stove or fuel that will be the answer for every >> family, in every country. Lets all work together to give families the >> chance to choose a variety of affordable options to clean cooking. >> > > But let us present them with all options. > > >> >> Best, >> Christina Espinosa >> >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Paul Olivier <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> Kevin, >>> >>> Biochar can have significant value even in poor countries. For example, >>> here in Dalat rice hull biochar is used extensively as a soil amendment. >>> If a poor household can produce one kg of biochar per day and sell it at a >>> fair market price, this will cover the cost of the means to produce it in >>> less than a year. A lot more money has to be devoted to biochar research in >>> a variety of agricultural applications. Once farmers understand the value >>> of biochar with respect to the specific plants or animals they grow, there >>> will be a rush to produce it. The high-grade heat produced in making >>> biochar can be used for cooking, and as a by-product of biochar production, >>> it becomes available to the household free-of-charge. To waste this heat, >>> as some propose to do, is incredibly short-sighted. The sale of biochar >>> should be able to cover not only the cost of the biomass from which it was >>> derived, but in time it should also cover the means to produce it. That is >>> why I push hard against those who want to use biochar as a fuel. >>> >>> Let us suppose that a gasifier costs $50 US dollars. Let us suppose that >>> a household produces one kg of biochar per day at a value of only $0.20 US >>> per kg. This represents an income of about $6.00 US dollars per month. In >>> less than a year the cost of the gasifier is covered. >>> >>> Here in Vietnam LPG sells for about $22 US dollars per bottle. Some >>> households consume up to two bottles of LPG each month. This works out to a >>> monthly fuel cost of $44 US dollars. This reliance on fossil fuels is >>> killing and has to stop. >>> >>> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/Paper/Presentations/Gasification.ppsx >>> >>> Thanks. >>> Paul >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 12:05 AM, Kevin <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> ** >>>> Dear Ron >>>> >>>> Thanks for your very interesting report to date on "The Big Event." >>>> >>>> I think that one thing that could be very helpful is a Graph showing " >>>> Stove Price" versus "Potential Customers." Clearly, if a person is earning >>>> say $1 per day, and the stove cost $70, this would be equivalent to 70 days >>>> income. Here in Canada, where the minimum wage is $10 per hour, or $80 per >>>> day, a stove costing 70 days income would cost $5,600. >>>> >>>> Or, to look at it from the other direction, "What price would a stove >>>> have to sell for, so that 90% of the World's Population could afford to buy >>>> it" >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> Kevin >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> *From:* [email protected] >>>> *To:* Discussion of biomass <[email protected]> ; >>>> biochar<[email protected]> >>>> *Cc:* Priyadarshini Karve <[email protected]> ; ,"paul >>>> anderson<[email protected]>; Crispin >>>> Pemberton-Pigott <[email protected]> ; [email protected] ; >>>> [email protected] ; [email protected] >>>> *Sent:* Monday, March 18, 2013 11:19 AM >>>> *Subject:* [biochar] First report from Phnom Penh >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi to two lists (with 6 ccs) >>>> >>>> 1. This written at end of "first" day of conference. Actually the >>>> official first GACC day is tomorrow, but today was also the second day of >>>> pre-conference activities.. List members active on these two lists, here >>>> (and shown on the "to" list), who I hope will add more are Priya Karve, >>>> Paul Anderson and Crispin Pemberton-Piggott. I missed the first day - >>>> Sunday - returning from Siem Reap - home of Angkor Wat. This is >>>> definitely the most impressive world heritage site I have seen or could >>>> imagine. Uniformly impressed by the Cambodian people. >>>> >>>> 2. My overall impression is that very few attendees know much about >>>> biochar nor char-making stoves. Of course most everyone knows something >>>> about stoves - although I would guess that fewer than half have been >>>> involved for more than a year or t wo Heard tonight that there are 650 >>>> registrants. Great conference facilities; no conference registration fee >>>> and fair number of freebie meals, coffee-break treats etc. >>>> >>>> >>>> 3. My first surprise char-making stove encounter was with Sonta >>>> Kauti, a Zambian with "Emerging Cooking Solutions" - whose stove can be >>>> seen at www.emerging.se. I have not yet seen the actual stove, nor >>>> yet know its pricing - but plan more talks with Sonta >>>> >>>> 4. Next was a short encounter with Ruben Walker of "African Clean >>>> Energy" (see http://www.ace.co.ls/), now manufacturing in Lesotho the >>>> "Philips" fan stove developed by Paul van der Sluis (PvdS). This has been >>>> identified as having the best performance characteristics so far tested. >>>> This was my first chance to hold one - and it looks exceptionally well >>>> made. A surprise was the set of 10 or 12 (?) flat ceramic liner pieces for >>>> the interior (maybe 1 cm thick??).&nb sp; Presumably long life time - being >>>> non-metal. Ruben said one could hold the outside of the stove after an >>>> hour of cooking -possible because there are four concentric metal >>>> cylinders (three concentric air gaps). This stove is not char making - >>>> but I remember hearing that PvdS regularly operates it as a >>>> charcoal-maker. Cost in neighborhood of $70. >>>> >>>> >>>> 5. Later, at this evening's reception, Mr. Adrian Padt of "Rocket >>>> Works" introduced himself (see http://www.rocketworks.org/ - >>>> including photo of Adrian). This is the stove with the interesting heavy >>>> wire mesh exterior that we discussed a few months ago - also can be held. >>>> This also looked exceptionally well made and rugged. Cost in the >>>> neighborhood of $50. In addition to the version seen at the site, they >>>> are now adding a door to better control excess air. >>>> >>>> 6. I attended a day-long session put on by the World B ank and the >>>> Asian Development Bank.- the emphasis was on country organizations in this >>>> region. Crispin was on what I thought the best panel - on testing, etc. >>>> This is to hope that Priya, Paul, and Crispin (and anyone else from these >>>> lists here in Phnom Penh) will also add their early summary thoughts. >>>> >>>> >>>> Any questions I/we can try to answer? >>>> >>>> Ron >>>> >>>> __._,_.___ >>>> Reply via web >>>> post<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJyNWpzajRmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDUyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRtc2dJZAMxNDY3MARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEzNjM2MTYzNTc-?act=reply&messageNum=14670> >>>> Reply >>>> to sender >>>> <[email protected]?subject=Re%3A%20First%20report%20from%20Phnom%20Penh> >>>> Reply >>>> to group >>>> <[email protected]?subject=Re%3A%20First%20report%20from%20Phnom%20Penh> >>>> Start >>>> a New >>>> Topic<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJmdWw3aTFvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDUyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzEzNjM2MTYzNTc-> >>>> Messages >>>> in this >>>> topic<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/message/14670;_ylc=X3oDMTM3OWpzaGUwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDUyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRtc2dJZAMxNDY3MARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzEzNjM2MTYzNTcEdHBjSWQDMTQ2NzA->(1) >>>> Recent Activity: >>>> >>>> - New >>>> Members<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJnazBoMWhyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDUyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2bWJycwRzdGltZQMxMzYzNjE2MzU3?o=6> >>>> 2 >>>> >>>> Visit Your >>>> Group<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZG8xaXZzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDUyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzEzNjM2MTYzNTc-> >>>> [image: Yahoo! >>>> Groups]<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZWZoZ2gxBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDUyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTM2MzYxNjM1OA--> >>>> Switch to: >>>> Text-Only<[email protected]?subject=Change+Delivery+Format:+Traditional>, >>>> Daily >>>> Digest<[email protected]?subject=Email+Delivery:+Digest>• >>>> Unsubscribe <[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>• >>>> Terms >>>> of Use <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> • Send us Feedback >>>> <[email protected]?subject=Feedback+on+the+redesigned+individual+mail+v1> >>>> . >>>> >>>> __,_._,___ >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Stoves mailing list >>>> >>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >>>> >>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org >>>> >>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: >>>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Paul A. Olivier PhD >>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong >>> Dalat >>> Vietnam >>> >>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam) >>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam) >>> Skype address: Xpolivier >>> http://www.esrla.com/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Stoves mailing list >>> >>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >>> [email protected] >>> >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >>> >>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org >>> >>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: >>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/ >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Christina Espinosa >> University of the Pacific '10 >> School of International Studies >> [email protected] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Stoves mailing list >> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >> [email protected] >> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >> >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org >> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: >> http://www.bioenergylists.org/ >> >> >> > > > -- > Paul A. Olivier PhD > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong > Dalat > Vietnam > > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam) > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam) > Skype address: Xpolivier > http://www.esrla.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > -- Paul A. Olivier PhD 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong Dalat Vietnam Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam) Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam) Skype address: Xpolivier http://www.esrla.com/
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