Crispin etal
1. I am disappointed we have no section in 4.2.2 to look at. Can anyone
supply it? I have not the time today.
2. I am no expert in this topic, but it seems to me that it makes no
difference whether the reporting says 4.9 or 5.0. The important issue was -
can others repeat the testing on the same stove and get the "same" reported
efficiency. This is an efficiency test to compare stoves. I care only that
both numbers 4.9 and 5.0 are reported and the energies involved are done
correctly. I care especially that energy in char is not treated as the same
sort of loss as what slipped past the pot which started with 5 liters.
3. You ask at the end: "Is this cognitive dissonance or conceptual error?"
I say this is neither. The question is, did the test you described give a
reasonably close approximation of heat transfer that was useful in separating
stoves into four groupings. If the answer was 44%, have I a right to demand
another test, since I thought it was going to be 46%? Eventually there could
be millions of dollars riding on this sort of 2% difference. (45% is the
dividing line between groups 3 and 4).
I suggest we have better things to than debate this sort of topic. An
ISO process is underway. We can point out big errors, but your example of 4.9
vs 5.0 doesn't rise to that level for me. Put that in energy efficiency terms
that matter, and we should all want to continue. I repeat, though, that
approach 4.2.2 is where the big league action (baseball jargon)
now is. Ron
>
> Dear Ron
>
> >> "Perhaps this is the time, before there is anything approaching an ISO
> >> standard, to discuss the foundational concepts upon which any claims to
> >> performance improvement might lie."
>
>
> >2. I went to all the standards sessions at the GACC Forum that I could. I
> >came away with the impression that the standards are very near set - mainly
> >because a large amount of work and time has gone into their development.
>
> If the ISO standard (which will be agreed by a vote among nations) is to be
> accepted (not just ‘passed’) it has to be relevant. The key missing
> ingredients so far are a) the discussion of what is done during a test has
> not been extended to the concepts that under lie it, - we have just been
> rehashing the old WBT pioneered 25 years ago. And b) it has not been
> externally reviewed by a competent authority. Obviously both these issues
> have been brought to the attention of the relevant parties.
>
> The world of ISO standards is not like the garage mechanic stove inventers
> writing their own ad hoc tests of what they think should happen or be looked
> at.
>
> Do in a large amount of work does not always overcome fundamental obstacles.
>
> > 3. How about giving us ONE paragraph in 4.2.2 to look at - and with
> > especially new language on how you would change that paragraph? Even if
> > that has to be a year or two from now.
>
> How is this:
>
> I give you 5 litres of water in a pot and ask you to bring it to a boil.
>
> You put it in a fire and bring it to what we agree is ‘a boil’ by which time
> 100 cc has evaporated.
>
> I ask you how many litres of water you have just boiled.
>
> What is your answer?
>
> That is an example of a conceptual difference. The WBT says you boiled 4.9.
> An engineering will say you boiled 5.0.
>
> Is this cognitive dissonance or conceptual error?
>
> Regards
>
> Crispin
>
>
>
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