Re: [Stoves] In praise of kerosene

Kevin Sat, 11 May 2013 10:17:18 -0700

Dear Jock
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jonathan P Gill 
  To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves 
  Cc: Jonathan P Gill ; Kevin 
  Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 12:01 PM
  Subject: Re: [Stoves] In praise of kerosene

Kevin,

It was indeed bad word smithing to have started with the term "Global
Warming". "Global Climate Disruption" is much more accurate,

# It is far worse than mere "wordsmithing." The IPCC is guilty of ignorance
and misdirection. Firstly, consider the concept of GW, as follows: If the
Northern hemisphere warmed by 10 C and the southern Hemisphere cooled by 10 C,
there would be absolutely no "Global Warming." However, the consequences to
climate and daily weather would be absolutely disastrous. Choosing the concept
of "Global Warming" was fatally flawed. Secondly, the IPPC was structured to
study ONLY anthropogenic effects. Naturally, within this context, they can find
that Man's Activities are the largest contributor to GW and Climate Change,
because they are not considering the contributions from Nature!

and, I would expect, inevitable at this late stage.

# OK.... if we assume they are inevatible, then we should be diverting our
efforts to a coping strategy, rather than a preventive strategy. This would be
a totally different strategy from that being proposed by the IPCC.

The models are only imperfect, not wrong.

# I would suggest that they are fatally flawed, as a consequence of ignoring
the influence of Mother Nature on GW and CC.

Models can only be as good as the imperfections of our human knowledge,
which can never be perfect, so forget that argument. I doubt very much that
you claim perfect knowledge, so what are the imperfections in your knowledge
preventing you from seeing?

# The IPCC Models are fatally flawed because they ignore "The Elephant in the
Room. " "Mother Nature" is the "elephant in the GW/CC Room" and they have
chosen to ignore Her. That is not "lack of knowledge", or "imperfection in
knowledge". That is a fatal philosophical flaw.

As my friend Errol Morris likes to say "believing is seeing".

# I see "climate change" locally. I believe in climate change here. I see the
US Drought Monitor http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/ and believe there is climate
change and GW happening elsewhere. However, I am a "dis-believer" and a
"Denier" that "Man alone is responsible for CC and GW. Give Mother Nature some
credit!! :-)

You are basically willfully reading the science incorrectly.

# What "Science"??? The IPCC gives "True Science" a bad name.

The models are imperfect but not "wrong" per se.

# They are wrong per se, in that they ignore Mother nature and ASSUME that
Anthropogenic Activity is the major driver.

If you read the items I forwarded to the list, you might get a better
understanding of the heat going into the ocean, that, while imperfectly
understood, is not a good thing.

# I don't know if it is "a bad thing" or a "good thing." I do agree that it
will be "a different thing."

If you wait for the "perfect model" then your grandchildren will surely have
very unkind words to say about you.

# The present " imperfect model" is very imperfect, in that it chooses to
ignore the inputs of Mother Nature. Money and effort directed at preventing
Climate Change will thus be mis-directed. Our Grand Children will certainly not
thank us for mis-directing money and effort into solving the wrong problems. If
anything, they will laugh at us for ignoring Mother Nature's Influence.

Even the British Royals have recently had some strong words to say about
climate change deniers such as you appear to be. This will be just as true for
the many "stovers" who are also climate change deniers.

# You pick a poor example for an Authority on Climate Change.

At some deep meta level, the problem for many is that Climate Disruption is
the ultimate nail in the coffin of unearned white male privilege. Which may
also help explain why it is white males in the USA who go on gun violence
sprees, not others. IE, this is about a whole lot more than CO2 in the
atmosphere. It is about clinging a way of life with a fatal internal
contradiction: "modern" industrialism powered by fossil carbon. As Hansen
says, this is a truly Faustian bargain.

# Atmospheric CO2 is now at its highest recent levels and yet reported GW
Temperatures are not rising. Now, any sensible person would realize that ocean
water absorbs heat. Do you know if the IPCC includes ocean warming in their
Global Temperature indicator, or was it technically flawed by measuring only
Global Air temperatures?

Cling if you must. I do not envy you trying to explain this to your
grandchildren.

# You are giving the IPCC far more credit than is scientifically justifiable
by their flawed mandate.

# I would kindly ask that this discussion be transferred to the
biochar-policy list, where "Climate Change Threads" are considered to be
acceptable. Climate Change Discussions on teh Stoves List is a distraction from
the stated purpose of the stoves List. I have taken the liberty of sending a
copy of this posting to [email protected] and will
respond, if necessary, only on that list.

Best wishes,

Kevin

Regards,

Jock

On May 11, 2013, at 10:49 AM, Kevin <[email protected]> wrote:

Dear Jock

The IPCC told us that "Global Warming" was the problem. They predicted how
much the air temperature would rise, and they were wrong. Their models were
wrong. Now they are telling us about the dangers of "Climate Change", and not
global warming. The fundamental problem is that their models have been shown to
be faulty.

"Consensus" is a "Political Process to get agreement." "Consensus Science"
is thus "Political Science", and not "Real Science."

I like this quote from the referenced article:
" “The climate may be heating up less in response to greenhouse-gas
emissions than was once thought,” read the article’s tagline. “But that does
not mean the problem is going away.” "

# With their models having been proved to be faulty, how do they know there
is a problem?

Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From: Jock Gill
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] In praise of kerosene

Steve,

Actually you have that wrong. The oceans are warming up significantly, a
very bad thing. It true that land temperatures have not warmed as much as was
expected. However this only buys a few extra years before climate disruption
becomes severe.

All thesis well explained here: http://nyti.ms/15sfbrd

Regards,

Jock

Jock Gill
P.O. Box 3
Peacham, VT 05862

Cell: (617) 449-8111

:> Extract CO2 from the atmosphere! <:

Sent from my iPad

On May 11, 2013, at 7:56 AM, Steve Taylor <[email protected]>
wrote:

Do you imagine that the higher and higher the concentration, the worse
it gets ? Even the IPCC acknowledges that isn't the case. 15 years of rapidly
rising CO2 concentrations, and zero change in global temperature, acknowledged
by many, including the UK Met Office.

On 11 May 2013 12:43, Paul Olivier <[email protected]> wrote:

Are you serious?

On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 6:04 PM, Steve Taylor
<[email protected]> wrote:

Please read this - just in from the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/11/science/earth/carbon-dioxide-level-passes-long-feared-milestone.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20130511&_r=0

Or. 0.04%

Since we are all in favour of burning bio-mass, shouldn't we prefer
a higher level of CO2, which would significantly promote plant growth, and
encourage the growth of the stuff we want to burn ?

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