I
> Back to the Farmer's Market discussion: I understand that the > sensibilities > of this discussion group are mostly favorable to DNC solicitors at the > Farmer's Market. Allowing this marauding band of clipboard carrying PAID > solicitors at the Market is an invitation to any and every public interest > group to send in their own band of roving professional buttonholers. I > wonder how charitable Dan and Andy and Charlie and Mary and Eric and others > would be if the RNC or pro-life groups sent in their toadies to accost > unsuspecting market-goers? I don't know about Dan, Andy, Charlie, Mary, Eric and others. But in years past I have been 'accosted' (not my word) by Republican campaign workers in the past. I don't know if they were paid or not. And I talked with them. I didn't notice any ill effects from the coversation. Though maybe the veggies were a little less fresh when I got home. Politics should have dialogue across people's beliefs. They can convince me of the pure foolishness of my belief. And I can convince them of the complete lunancy of their beliefs. So if the Republicans, Pro-life or free lovers are the market this summer and fall I would be eager to talk. > > I was at the Farmer's Market on Sunday. A couple of the folks in DNC > t-shirts were standing right off the curb on the northeast corner of the > market. Others were across the street on the south side of the market. > When corn and tomatoes start showing up in the next few weeks, the market > will be mobbed most of the morning. Having these folks - and others like > them - hang out on the periphery makes a lot of practical sense - and no > one's free speech rights are being violated. > > Non-issue. Enjoy the summer. > > Paul Gleeson > St. Paul > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Behalf Of Jon Kerr > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 6:05 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [StPaul] Farmers Market & free speech > > Several additional thoughts about the Farmers Market and free speech: > This is both a specific situation of concern (I'd repeat my earlier > questions regarding Farmer's Market general operations and openness even > while they seek more St. Paul public support) and a more general problem as > Andy points out in his post. > And it is not just law enforcement that is responsible nor does it only > happen in the context of political campaigns. Indeed, candidates may even > get an easier going - given their visibility and their potential power if > elected. > More often limitations on free speech come in more subtle ways and I'd > argue > come from both left and right. One of my increasing frustrations in recent > years of community newspaper publishing was the number of public and > semi-public places willing to put arbitrary restrictions or fees on > distribution of literature that particularly limit the smaller voices. I'm > talking not just about stores and malls but even government locations and > even public libraries or others who count themselves as staunch defenders > of > the First Amendment! > Perhaps it is in relation to niche marketing or just to the increasing > number of garish yellow or red streetcorner boxes or the trashy, so-called > entertainment publications that also irritate me on several levels. But it > seems to me a small price to pay and a disturbing sign of growing kneejerk > intolerance for things we find personally upsetting, impolite or just plain > untidy. > The same principle seems to be carrying over into other civic areas. Open > Meeting laws have been virtually forgotten as a principle in recent years - > usually in the name of efficiency. Some of our major influential bodies > e.g. > the Saint Paul Riverfront Corporation, have been allowed to take on a > quasi-private legal status that does not even require them to announce when > they meet. And I've even seen some neighborhood leaders who like to boast > here and elsewhere about their role in grassroots democracy demonstrate a > willingness to operate behind closed doors when convenient. > Interestingly, the principal of "privatization" is a relatively recent > legal > phenomenon (you won't find it anywhere in the Constitution) and a bit of a > double-edged sword that persons of all political colors ought to be > concerned about. While we can all think of examples where we wouldn't wish > to be disturbed or of abuses of speech, I would argue that those instances > are increasingly outweighed by the dangers of social polarization and gated > community intellectualism that often keep us from having a decent > discourse > (except of course in this forum!) > Is this the society that we have come to? > Jon Kerr > West Side > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 12:32 PM > Subject: Stpaul Digest, Vol 7, Issue 9 > > > > Send Stpaul mailing list submissions to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Stpaul digest..." > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > Please - Take the St. Paul Job Shadow Survey > > Just 15 Questions: > > http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=70658501784 > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. No Authentic Irish Pubs in St. Paul (M Charles Swope) > > 2. Re: St. Paul Legislative Delegation (Tim Erickson) > > 3. RE: Public Space and the Farmers Market (Tom & Elsa Thompson) > > 4. Re: Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market (Jane Prince) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:02:58 -0700 (PDT) > > From: M Charles Swope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: [StPaul] No Authentic Irish Pubs in St. Paul > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > Too bad none of the faux Irish places in town don't > > try for some authenticity. That would require banning > > smoking now that real Irish pubs don't allow it. At > > least one Irish pub in England has adopted this > > approach. See: > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/hampshire/dorset/3868331.stm > > > > "Mike McCarthy, joint owner ..., [said]: 'The pub > > opened on Friday and we've been extremely busy. > > > > Everyone's been very positive about the non-smoking > > policy - especially the ladies - who don't like going > > home with their clothes smelling of smoke. > > > > We didn't do it as a marketing ploy - it just seemed > > the right thing to do. > > > > Smoking and drinking are seen as going hand-in-hand, > > but I don't think that should be the case.'" > > > > It'd be nice to see the Dubliner or Costello's provide > > us with a REAL Irish pub. > > > > Charlie Swope > > Ward 1 > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:03:40 -0500 > > From: Tim Erickson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: Re: [StPaul] St. Paul Legislative Delegation > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > > > At 8:14 AM -0400 7/6/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > >Some are missing. We have a list posted at > > >http://www.stpaulneat.org/St_Paul_Delegation2.html > > > > I checked the NEAT list for the St. Paul delegation. According to the > > NEAT list, parts of district 39 and 55 would be in St. Paul. > > > > However, authoritive sources on the East Side assure me that district > > 55 no longer includes any part of St. Paul (although, apparently it > > used to). It appears, that district 55 covers most of Maplewood. See > > PDF map: > > > > http://www.gis.leg.mn/l2002/pdf/55.pdf > > > > Now, unless I'm mistaken - that would mean that district 39 covers > > South St. Paul and other areas south of St. Paul. But, South St. Paul > > is a separate city. District 39 appears to border the "West Side" of > > St. Paul, which of course, is really the Southern part of St. Paul > > proper. > > > > ;-( > > > > See PDF Map: > > > > http://www.gis.leg.mn/l2002/pdf/39.pdf > > > > Is everyone confused? > > > > ================================================= > > So Until Proven Otherwise, This Appears To Be the > > Entire St. Paul Legislative Delegation > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > 64 Richard Cohen (Senator) > > 64A Matt Entenza (Representative) > > 64B Michael Paymar (Representative) > > > > 65 Sandra Pappas (Senator) > > 65A Cy Thao (Representative) > > 65B Carlos Mariani (Representative) > > > > 66 Ellen Anderson (Senator) > > 66A John Lesch (Representative) > > 66B Alice Hausman (Representative) > > > > 67 Mee Moua (Senator) > > 67A Tim Mahoney (Representative) > > 67B Sheldon Johnson (Representative) > > > > District 66 also includes parts of Falcon Heights. > > > > ================================================= > > > > Tim Erickson > > Hamline Midway > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > -- > > ================================================= > > Tim Erickson http://www.politalk.com > > St. Paul, MN - USA 651-643-0722 > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] iChat/AIM: stpaultim > > ================================================= > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:11:47 -0500 > > From: "Tom & Elsa Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: [StPaul] RE: Public Space and the Farmers Market > > To: "stpaul forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > "We then said "Great! This is public land, paid for > > with public tax dollars,........."And then after we're > > arrested and beat the rap, we'll sue you and Mayor > > Coleman under 42 USC 1983 which is the Federal Civil > > Rights law."" > > > > "Until I am shown that the Farmers Market is private > > land, I would tell any candidate or any group with any > > issue that they have a right to wander the Farmers' > > Market freely and at will. It is disturbing that City > > officials appear to be limiting the exercise of Free > > Speech under the First Amendment there." > > > > > > Ok, I have a question or two on this; > > > > If I or someone else rents public property (Como Park Pavillion, > Conservatory, etc) for a wedding, family reunion, company picnic, or any > other private event, I or anyone else can walk into that area with full > first amendment rights and talk politics or hand out candidate information? > Since this is public land, it really can't be rented and used for private > functions? > > > > Is this the society that we have come to? In order to show our political > opponents that we can, so we will? > > > > My opinion is that we should respects someone's rights to political free > speech. At the same time we should respect those who are trying to do > commerce or have a wedding, on public property, to be able to do so with > some rights of privacy. Just because it is a commerce oriented function as > opposed to a wedding makes the lease or rental payment no less important to > the person having the function. > > > > Tom Thompson > > Como Park > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 12:31:46 -0500 > > From: "Jane Prince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: [StPaul] Re: Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > > > I will be happy to look into the Farmer's Market's claim that by leasing > > the public sidewalk, the market can prohibit political activities. > > Thanks to Mary Zanmiller for bringing this to our attention. > > > > In Nov. 2002, I was part of a public demonstration at the Xcel Center. > > Ramsey County Sheriff's deputies prohibited demonstrators from being on > > the sidewalk directly in front of Xcel. When I checked with St. Paul > > Police, they upheld the view I had of the city ordinance that political > > activity cannot be prohibited from the public sidewalk. Police officers > > allowed us to come across the street, march, and hold signs, despite the > > directives of the Ramsey County Sheriff. Since that time, our office > > (Ward 4, City Council) has put several groups in touch with the St. Paul > > Police to clarify this policy before planned demonstrations. Deputy > > Chief Dick Gardell has been a wonderful guardian of this city > > ordinance. > > > > It would be unfortunate to prohibit political candidates from engaging > > the public at the Farmer's Market. No shopper is obligated to talk to > > political candidates, but the market has always been a great informal > > gathering place for community networking and discussion. > > > > Jane Prince, Legislative Aide > > > > > > > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/04/04 08:21AM >>> > > Send Stpaul mailing list submissions to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Stpaul digest..." > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > Please - Take the St. Paul Job Shadow Survey > > Just 15 Questions: > > http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=70658501784 > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market (Mary C. Zanmiller) > > 2. RE: Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market (Paul Gleeson) > > 3. RE: Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market > > (Tom & Elsa Thompson) > > 4. Re: RE: Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market > > ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > > 5. RE: Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market (Eric Mitchell) > > 6. RE: Public Space and the Farmers Market (Tom & Elsa Thompson) > > 7. RE: RE: Public Space and the Farmers Market (Guy Western) > > 8. Re: Re: District Council Overhaul ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > > 9. Re: Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market > > ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:13:02 -0500 > > From: "Mary C. Zanmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: [StPaul] Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > I witnessed the worst of contemporary USA at the Saint Paul Farmers' > > Market this morning (July 3, 2004). A Democratic National Committee > > (DNC) worker was conversing with two people on the sidewalk along the > > southwest corner of the Saint Paul Farmers' Market. As I walked by > > the > > market manager was telling the DNC worker that he could not talk to > > people at the Market. I indignantly interfered and said, "He has a > > right to speak with people." The Market manager replied, "No, he > > doesn't, and customers are complaining." One of the people he was > > speaking to said, "I am a customer and I want to talk with him." I > > added, "On a public sidewalk he has a right to free speech." The > > Market > > manager replied, "The Market leases the sidewalk as well and he has to > > leave." I replied, "The next time I see our Republican mayor speaking > > to people at the Market I will find you and you will have to ask him > > to > > leave." > > > > This is plain wrong. The people of Saint Paul paid for this market. > > Hundred of thousands of public dollars was recently invested to > > upgrade > > this space. The people of Saint Paul generously support the market by > > buying from the farmers selling their products. So in Saint Paul we > > no longer honor the free speech that is guaranteed in the > > constitution. > > Many times I have seen Mayor Randy Kelly and Senator Norman Coleman > > shaking hands as they campaign for their next great office. So some > > people can campaign and others can't? Who gets to choose? Who sets > > the > > litmus test? > > > > The Saint Paul Farmers' market is the commons if their ever was one. > > How ironic that this happened the day before our observance of the > > Declaration of Independence - the birth of democracy, with its' > > guarantee of free speech. > > > > You know it makes me want to sign up to be a DNC volunteer, I think I > > will take the Northwest corner and the sun won't be in my eyes. If > > any > > readers know how I can join up; please contact me. > > > > It is a time-honored tradition for the Saint Paul Farmers' Market to > > be > > a public space. What happened this morning is a "tragedy of the > > commons." The Saint Paul Farmers' Market should honor free speech and > > never, ever again kick people out that are engaged in our democratic > > process. > > > > Happy 4th of July. > > > > Peace follows freedom and justice, > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Mary C. Zanmiller > > West Seventh Neighborhood > > Saint Paul, MN USA > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 18:38:56 -0500 > > From: "Paul Gleeson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: RE: [StPaul] Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market > > To: "Mary C. Zanmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > > > Mary, > > > > I have watched clip-board-carrying, fresh-faced young people wearing > > DNC > > t-shirts accost pedestrians at the Grand and Victoria intersection. I > > wonder........are they volunteers or do they receive compensation for > > contributions collected? Do you know? > > > > Greenpeace and other environmental organizations commonly employ > > commissioned sales representatives to canvass neighborhoods in St. > > Paul > > selling memberships. For many of us, it's turned into a joke and, > > frankly, > > I feel sorry for the young idealists who take these jobs. Has the DNC > > adopted this model? > > > > As far as the Farmer's Market is concerned.........I see candidates > > and/or > > their volunteers there all the time during the two or three weekends > > before > > a primary or general election. I suspect there will be no change this > > year. > > Benanev was there a lot and nobody kicked him out. > > > > Isn't Randy Kelly a Democrat? How many years in the legislature? > > What's > > this Republican stuff? > > > > Enjoy the 4th. > > > > Paul Gleeson > > St. Paul > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Behalf Of Mary C. Zanmiller > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 4:13 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: [StPaul] Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market > > > > I witnessed the worst of contemporary USA at the Saint Paul Farmers' > > Market this morning (July 3, 2004). A Democratic National Committee > > (DNC) worker was conversing with two people on the sidewalk along the > > southwest corner of the Saint Paul Farmers' Market. As I walked by > > the > > market manager was telling the DNC worker that he could not talk to > > people at the Market. I indignantly interfered and said, "He has a > > right to speak with people." The Market manager replied, "No, he > > doesn't, and customers are complaining." One of the people he was > > speaking to said, "I am a customer and I want to talk with him." I > > added, "On a public sidewalk he has a right to free speech." The > > Market > > manager replied, "The Market leases the sidewalk as well and he has to > > leave." I replied, "The next time I see our Republican mayor speaking > > to people at the Market I will find you and you will have to ask him > > to > > leave." > > > > This is plain wrong. The people of Saint Paul paid for this market. > > Hundred of thousands of public dollars was recently invested to > > upgrade > > this space. The people of Saint Paul generously support the market by > > buying from the farmers selling their products. So in Saint Paul we > > no longer honor the free speech that is guaranteed in the > > constitution. > > Many times I have seen Mayor Randy Kelly and Senator Norman Coleman > > shaking hands as they campaign for their next great office. So some > > people can campaign and others can't? Who gets to choose? Who sets > > the > > litmus test? > > > > The Saint Paul Farmers' market is the commons if their ever was one. > > How ironic that this happened the day before our observance of the > > Declaration of Independence - the birth of democracy, with its' > > guarantee of free speech. > > > > You know it makes me want to sign up to be a DNC volunteer, I think I > > will take the Northwest corner and the sun won't be in my eyes. If > > any > > readers know how I can join up; please contact me. > > > > It is a time-honored tradition for the Saint Paul Farmers' Market to > > be > > a public space. What happened this morning is a "tragedy of the > > commons." The Saint Paul Farmers' Market should honor free speech and > > never, ever again kick people out that are engaged in our democratic > > process. > > > > Happy 4th of July. > > > > Peace follows freedom and justice, > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Mary C. Zanmiller > > West Seventh Neighborhood > > Saint Paul, MN USA > > > > > > _____________________________________________ > > To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > _____________________________________________ > > NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: > > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul > > > > Archive Address: > > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 20:16:09 -0500 > > From: "Tom & Elsa Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: [StPaul] RE: Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market > > To: "stpaul forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Is no place off limits for the DNC/DFL? Can't we go anywhere without > > having to hear politics? I don't care if it's the DNC/DFL or GOP. When > > I go to the Farmers Market I want to shop amongst the fresh produce and > > not amongst the stench of politics. Please leave politics out of some > > places in our lives. > > > > If they actually do lease the property than they pay to be there. > > Whether or not public dollars went into the project is of no relevance. > > Only the terms of the lease the city signed. If you have a grievance it > > is not with the Farmers Market it is with your city council, or > > whomever, signed the lease that gave the lease rights to the Farmers > > Market. > > > > Tom Thompson > > Como Park > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 22:17:06 -0500 (CDT) > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [StPaul] RE: Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market > > To: "Tom & Elsa Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Cc: stpaul forum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Message-ID: > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > > > > If you want to stay away from politics, you should stay away from all > > forms of organized public spaces, including farmers markets and public > > roads, libraries, post offices, medical centers, restaurants and > > bridges. > > How do you think any of these things would come to be without the > > vision > > and effort of competent people who choose to devote themselves to > > public > > service? > > > > I think that the attitude that you profess, that politics has a > > "Stench", > > is a deadly one for our civilization, and you should be ashamed of such > > an > > attitude. While some politicians behave shamfully, there is no lack > > of > > similar shameful behavior among every form on human endeaver, from > > religion to business to education to labor. This is just the human > > condition. You always will have bad people, in every profession, from > > the > > priesthood to the oil business. > > > > I personally want to thank all the people who serve us, the public, by > > running for office, serving in office, and putting up with unfounded > > and > > unfair criticism like Tom Thompson expresses here. > > > > Bob Treumann, Como Park > > > > Tom & Elsa Thompson said: > > > Is no place off limits for the DNC/DFL? Can't we go anywhere without > > > having to hear politics? I don't care if it's the DNC/DFL or GOP. > > When I > > > go to the Farmers Market I want to shop amongst the fresh produce and > > not > > > amongst the stench of politics. Please leave politics out of some > > places > > > in our lives. > > > > > > If they actually do lease the property than they pay to be there. > > Whether > > > or not public dollars went into the project is of no relevance. Only > > the > > > terms of the lease the city signed. If you have a grievance it is > > not > > > with the Farmers Market it is with your city council, or whomever, > > signed > > > the lease that gave the lease rights to the Farmers Market. > > > > > > Tom Thompson > > > Como Park > > > > -- > > Bob Treumann, Saint Paul > > Please Note: Replies to this email address all go to the trash except > > where the subject line contains a recognized mailing list identifier, > > such > > as [TCMETRO],[StPaul], MP-N ... > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 5 > > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 21:11:18 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Eric Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: RE: [StPaul] Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market > > To: Paul Gleeson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Mary C. Zanmiller" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > --- Paul Gleeson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Mary, > > > > > > I have watched clip-board-carrying, fresh-faced > > > young people wearing DNC ste > > > t-shirts accost pedestrians at the Grand and > > > Victoria intersection. I > > > wonder........are they volunteers or do they receive > > > compensation for > > > contributions collected? Do you know? > > > > I do know. The answer is no. As a matter of fact, most > > Democratic fundraisers are paid a fee/salary that is > > constant. It does not change with increase amounts > > raised or goals missed. It's different on the > > Republican side and some non-profits. If these kids > > were really from the DNC, they are paid some kind of > > low monthly stipend or are volunteers who are > > reimbursed expenses. > > It's not about the money, it's about grassroots > > support idealism. > > > > Yes, the Farmer's Market recently received about 1 > > million dollars from the St Paul taxpayers. Ask the > > manager did he care about politics when he came to St > > Paulites with is hat in his hand looking for a million > > dollars. The 'stench' was sweet green back then. > > > > For those who want to get away from being 'bothered' > > while shopping fruit, you always got Cubs and Rainbow. > > It's inside on private property. > > > > Happy Fourth! > > > > Eric Mitchell > > Payne Phalen > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 6 > > Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 00:04:59 -0500 > > From: "Tom & Elsa Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: [StPaul] RE: Public Space and the Farmers Market > > To: "stpaul forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > I didn't criticize anyone in political office (although I will often > > criticize the DNC/DFL positions, as they deserve it). I praise my > > President George W Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney. I praise my > > governor Tim Pawlenty. They are making the hard choices and good > > decisions for all of us. > > > > Just leave your political propaganda out of my face when I'm not > > specifically looking for it, such as on this forum. To tell me I can't > > go to the Farmers Market without having DNC/DFL "volunteers" in my face > > is ridiculous. It should be my right not to have to listen to > > propagandists' garbage (on either side) amongst the sweet smell of > > flowers. Keep your politics where it belongs, in political forums and > > the political arena. Not everywhere that's public is a place that has > > to have politics drug up. > > > > I served the public for 21 years as a public servant. I know what it > > takes. I also know that politics has taken on a stench in the last few > > years. The agenda of personal destruction is prevelant. It's a win at > > all cost scenario now. That's not politics, that's whats destructive > > and endangers our civilization. Wanting to be free from vile personal > > attacks while shopping is not too much to ask. > > > > By the way, since that property is leased, it's not public property > > while the Farmers Market is there. They have a lease to use and occupy > > that space. > > > > I hope the list manager notices that a party did single me out by name > > and that the list manager will take appropriate action against that > > person. > > > > Tom Thompson > > Como Park > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 7 > > Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 02:31:30 -0500 > > From: "Guy Western" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: RE: [StPaul] RE: Public Space and the Farmers Market > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > > > > > > [Original Message] > > > From: Tom & Elsa Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > I praise my President George W Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney. > > > I praise my governor Tim Pawlenty. They are making the hard choices > > > and good decisions for all of us. > > > > In order to be worthy of anyone's praise, these men had better do > > their > > duty to uphold every citizen's constitutional right of free speech and > > assembly. Just because I might characterize or imagine any encounter, > > or > > potential encounter, with an opposing political viewpoint as > > "propaganda", > > "garbage", "in my face", or "vile personal attacks" isn't really > > adequate > > justification for more trampling on the constitutional freedom of > > other > > Americans. > > > > I'm not sure about the fine points of how much of the sidewalk, curb > > and > > paved parking areas of the Farmers' Market are leased or sublet by whom > > or > > from whom, but it has the overwhelming appearance of a public market > > place. > > Somewhere between your parked car and your favorite fruit stand, > > someone's > > right to carry a clipboard and talk about politics is going to be > > constitutionally protected, as well it should be. I'm willing to bet > > that > > the behavior described here, even if it involves TWO people in khaki > > shorts > > with clipboards asking to take a moment of your time, falls far short > > of > > anything that could be considered riot. > > > > Political speech isn't protected because it's "garbage"; it's a > > primary > > freedom--one we should celebrate even as we praise our leaders. > > Political > > volunteers can walk right up to the front door of your home. You, of > > course, can turn them away. In the Farmers' Market, you can just keep > > walking if you don't care to listen and, I assure you, the flowers > > will > > smell just as sweet. > > > > Guy Western > > the West Side > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 8 > > Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 03:24:43 EDT > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [StPaul] Re: District Council Overhaul > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > > > A couple of points on this, first I may have been the one yelling the > > loudest > > about the funding formula but the initiative and my instructions to act > > on it > > came from the District 2 Board. > > > > The City created the District Council system in the 70's by recognizing > > those > > neighborhoods that were politically active at the time and creating > > Districts > > where there were not active identified neighborhood organizations (East > > Side > > and North End). The Districts were no where near equal in size or > > population. > > District Councils were originally funded on a case by case grant basis > > and > > in the early 80's that meant that the best grant writers got the most > > money. > > In 1990 the current funding formula was developed that gave 80% of the > > money > > evenly to each district and 20% proportionately (making sure to "hold > > harmless" > > those districts who had larger grants than the formula would allow). > > > > The proposed formula is 75% population, 15% poverty index, 5% > > non-English > > speaking, 5% jobs. So, you start with the current funding for the > > system, take > > 75% of it and distribute it based on a districts population, next you > > take 15% > > of the money and base it on a district population below 100% of poverty > > (15% > > is the number of people in St. Paul who fall below that line), then you > > take 5% > > of the monies and divide it by the number on non-English speaking > > adults > > (city total) and lastly you take 5% and divide it based on the number > > of jobs in > > the district. > > > > The total is the amount that each district would receive. The > > additional > > $116,000 that is needed is to bring the six smallest districts up to > > $37,000 a > > year. That is Downtown, West Seventh Street, Summit Hill, St. Anthony > > Park, > > Como, and Hamline Midway. Under the above formula these small district > > don't > > reach that level of funding and the additional money is needed to make > > them > > viable. > > > > Though there is general agreement on this being a better formula there > > is one > > district that is looking for a significant increase (to complicated to > > get > > into) not under the proposed guidelines and finding the additional > > dollars to > > make this happen is also in question. We shall see if it passes. The > > lack of > > fairness in the system is not spread out but concentrated in Wards 5, 6 > > and > > part of 3 (Highland). Wards 2 and 4 lose nothing if this falls apart > > since all > > of the highly funded small districts are in those two wards and the > > impact in > > Ward 1 and 7 is marginal. > > > > Chuck Repke > > District 2 E. D. > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 9 > > Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 08:21:34 -0500 > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [StPaul] Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market > > To: "Mary C. Zanmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > I was also at the farmer's market yesterday and saw the workers. I > > too am a > > customer who talked with the workers - (for disclosure's sake I am a > > long time > > active DFLer) Their approach was standard street organizing and it > > was fun to > > see non-ad based political action going on. > > > > What is interesting is that over the years political activity at the > > market jas > > occurred often. I may be wrong but I believe I have seen > > representative of both > > mayoral campaigns in the last few campaigns there. Along with other > > statewide > > offices. > > > > Sadly my last conversation with Paul Wellstone was at the market on the > > Saturday > > before the plane went down. I will alway carry a bittersweet memory of > > Paul > > shaking hands and litsening to the"customers" as he moved through the > > crowd. > > > > > > > > Quoting "Mary C. Zanmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > > > I witnessed the worst of contemporary USA at the Saint Paul Farmers' > > > Market this morning (July 3, 2004). A Democratic National Committee > > > (DNC) worker was conversing with two people on the sidewalk along > > the > > > southwest corner of the Saint Paul Farmers' Market. As I walked by > > the > > > market manager was telling the DNC worker that he could not talk to > > > people at the Market. I indignantly interfered and said, "He has a > > > right to speak with people." The Market manager replied, "No, he > > > doesn't, and customers are complaining." One of the people he was > > > speaking to said, "I am a customer and I want to talk with him." I > > > added, "On a public sidewalk he has a right to free speech." The > > Market > > > manager replied, "The Market leases the sidewalk as well and he has > > to > > > leave." I replied, "The next time I see our Republican mayor > > speaking > > > to people at the Market I will find you and you will have to ask him > > to > > > leave." > > > > > > This is plain wrong. The people of Saint Paul paid for this market. > > > Hundred of thousands of public dollars was recently invested to > > upgrade > > > this space. The people of Saint Paul generously support the market > > by > > > buying from the farmers selling their products. So in Saint Paul > > we > > > no longer honor the free speech that is guaranteed in the > > constitution. > > > Many times I have seen Mayor Randy Kelly and Senator Norman Coleman > > > shaking hands as they campaign for their next great office. So some > > > people can campaign and others can't? Who gets to choose? Who sets > > the > > > litmus test? > > > > > > The Saint Paul Farmers' market is the commons if their ever was one. > > > How ironic that this happened the day before our observance of the > > > Declaration of Independence - the birth of democracy, with its' > > > guarantee of free speech. > > > > > > You know it makes me want to sign up to be a DNC volunteer, I think > > I > > > will take the Northwest corner and the sun won't be in my eyes. If > > any > > > readers know how I can join up; please contact me. > > > > > > It is a time-honored tradition for the Saint Paul Farmers' Market to > > be > > > a public space. What happened this morning is a "tragedy of the > > > commons." The Saint Paul Farmers' Market should honor free speech > > and > > > never, ever again kick people out that are engaged in our democratic > > > process. > > > > > > Happy 4th of July. > > > > > > Peace follows freedom and justice, > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Mary C. Zanmiller > > > West Seventh Neighborhood > > > Saint Paul, MN USA > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________ > > > To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion > > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > _____________________________________________ > > > NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: > > > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul > > > > > > Archive Address: > > > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _____________________________________________ > > NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: > > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul > > > > Archive Address: > > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ > > _____________________________________________ > > For state and national discussions see: > > http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html > > For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract > > > > End of Stpaul Digest, Vol 7, Issue 4 > > ************************************ > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _____________________________________________ > > NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: > > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul > > > > Archive Address: > > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ > > _____________________________________________ > > For state and national discussions see: > http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html > > For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract > > > > End of Stpaul Digest, Vol 7, Issue 9 > > ************************************ > > > > _____________________________________________ > To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > _____________________________________________ > NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul > > Archive Address: > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ > > _____________________________________________ > To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > _____________________________________________ > NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul > > Archive Address: > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ > _____________________________________________ To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _____________________________________________ NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/
