The thing you need to understand (and I can't help thinking that you actually do), is that hiring someone to carry a message protected by the First Amendment doesn't forfeit the protection of free speech and certainly doesn't reduce protected speech to the level of a tubular meat product. Now, c'mon! Don't tell me you're not at least chuckling, too.
Every campaign HIRES somebody. If I pay someone to print my campaign signs or campaign buttons, that sure doesn't mean I forfeit the right to wear those comercially-produced expressions of free speech in public. Again, think about the implications. Analogy has its place in discussion, but, to those of us who take the slim but powerful U.S. Constitution, the appended Bill of Rights, and the freedom and liberty it guarantees, seriously, these kinds of frivolous comparisons to hot dogs, or any other commodity in interstate commerce, are insulting--insulting to the Constitution, to the nation it embodies, and to the forum. I think you know better than that, and, if you don't, this is as good a place as any to learn. Now let's turn down the dramatic outrage shall we. I didn't say anything about you, personally. I viciously claimed your comparison was "humorous", and that was giving it the benefit of the doubt. I certainly don't see the need to apologize in public AGAIN to mollify you further. Guy Western the West Side p.s. to the List Manager I didn't contend that there was anything "irrational" about citizens being fed up with political campaigning. (Citizens in a democracy being "fed up with politics", as you put it, however, is an oxymoron.) In fact, I proposed a resolution to this more general complaint in a seperate thread that attracted absolutely no interest, whatsoever. > [Original Message] > From: Paul Gleeson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 7/10/04 12:21:08 AM > Subject: RE: [StPaul] Farmers Market & free speech > > Dear Guy, > > No, my last posting wasn't a joke. I've been practicing restraining myself > after the onslaught of criticism over the last few days, so I'm going to > ignore the tone of your previous contribution and try to be constructive. > (At least Andy called me "Mr.".) > > So........political vs. commercial speech is the issue? > > Take a look at the http://grassrootscampaigns.com (or .org) web site. Do > you see any discussion of issues? No. Do you see any discussion or names > of political candidates? (other than Pres. Bush?) No. What you DO find is > a kind of mission statement: "By talking with one person at a time about the > Bush Administration's record, we aim to identify 30,000 new Democratic > donors every month until Election Day and raise millions of dollars for the > coordinated campaign to win back the White House and Congress." The other > thing you'll find on that web site is a "Jobs" page. And there's not much > else there!! > > For more on this FOR-PROFIT (according to the following article) > corporation, please see an article published in "Seven Days" a Vermont > Alternative Weekly newspaper http://www.sevendaysvt.com The article was > published less than a month ago, but is no longer available on that web > site.. I found it on a blog site using Google. Here's a link to a copy of > the article http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/6/17/11331/2673 entitled > "McCanvassing? The DNC's pre-packaged "grassroots" campaign" The CEO is a > guy named Doug Phelps who is the founder of the "Fund for Public Interest > Research, a nonprofit organization that has run canvasses for the Sierra > Club, Greenpeace and the Human Rights Campaign, among others". (What a > surprise, uh?) > > So, my point is (and has been) that the Farmer's Market solicitors are > working for a commercial firm that has been engaged by the DNC to collect > names and money. That's all Grassroots Campaigns, Inc. does and, to me, it > sounds a helluva lot more commercial than political. A lot closer to > selling hot dogs than engaging in a discussion of issues and beliefs. > > Me? I'd rather save my First Amendment free speech fight for people and > groups actually competing in the marketplace of political ideas rather than > a company that gets paid for collecting names and raising money. > > Happy to be able add a little humor to Guy's day, > > > > Paul Gleeson > St Paul > > > It's easy to grin > When your ship comes in > And you've got the stock market beat. > But the man worthwhile, > Is the man who can smile, > When his shorts are too tight in the seat > "Caddy Shack" 1980 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Behalf Of Guy Western > Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 5:50 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [StPaul] Farmers Market & free speech > > > My sincere apologies if this was offensive to anyone, but I was quite > certain that the poster who made the comparison between hot dogs and > protected speech in the context of a discussion of constitutional rights > was actually making a joke. In fact, I'm still quite sure that this was > just a joke that the List Manager may have missed reading hastily in his > solemn pursuit of duty. I can't imagine anyone was really offended. > > I know the Rehnquist court has been assiduous in its application of the > "equal protections" clause, but did anyone seriously think any of us were > urging that the First Amendment meant the Farmers' Market had to admit > every popcorn wagon and hot dog vendor who could push a cart? I don't > think so. > > Guy Western > still laughing on the West Side > > > [Original Message] > > From: List Manager <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: St. Paul Issues Forum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Date: 7/9/04 2:38:34 PM > > Subject: RE: [StPaul] Farmers Market & free speech > > > > Comments From The List Manager: > > ------------------------------- > > > > >Isn't that what you're asking? Because comparing hot dogs and viewpoints > is > > >only relevant insofar as it is humorous. > > > > I agree that pushing political ideas and hot dogs are different > > issues and not so easily compared. But, as much as I disagree with > > the comparison, I don't find it either outlandish nor humorous. > > > > I think that the reality is, that citizens in our society view the > > right to Free Speech in very different ways. There is a whole > > spectrum of ideas about how just much latitude that we should have > > in this regard and how much and how often, that government can put > > restrictions on our right to free speech. > > > > In my opinion, a healthy discussion about free speech is one in which > > everyone can present their point of view on the issue without having > > it dismissed or scoffed at. > > > > I don't see anything irrational about citizens that are fed up with > > politics asking that politics be kept out of the farmers market. I > > also understand the potential dangers that come with this position. > > Can we please, keep this discussion open to differing opinions and > > ways of thinking? > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > -- > > Tim Erickson > > List Manager > > St. Paul Issues Forum > > http://www.e-democracy.org/stpaul/ > > Hamline Midway Resident > > 651-643-0722 > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > St. Paul Links - http://www.e-democracy.org/stpaul/links.html > > > > "The St. Paul Issues Forum is a interactive e-mail discussion on > > important issues about St. Paul public policy. Participation is free > > and open to anyone. We currently have about 350 concerned citizens > > and community leaders subscribed to our discussion." > > _____________________________________________ > > To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > _____________________________________________ > > NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: > > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul > > > > Archive Address: > > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ > > > _____________________________________________ > To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > _____________________________________________ > NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul > > Archive Address: > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ > > _____________________________________________ > To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > _____________________________________________ > NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul > > Archive Address: > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ _____________________________________________ To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _____________________________________________ NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/
