Might you want to also provide a table with Hydrogen and producer gas also? Seems to me to be somewhat narrow, unless that is the intention.
James Slayden On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Hakan Falk wrote: > > Hi Keith, > > Thank you for your response and I am somewhat uncomfortable with the > second > table. I am not sure of that the presentation of political - commercial > - > influencing points are suitable in a table. Need to think more about it. > Therefore I like to discuss the basics first and the table > "Characteristics, comparing Ethanol, Biodiesel and SVO." first. > > I do think that the table "Characteristics, comparing Ethanol, Biodiesel > and SVO." can be useful and ask you or others to suggest points that I > maybe have missed. I must also underline that this is not a question of > choice between them, they are all desperately needed and that is also > covered in the table. On those points we agree. > > I have marked the points we agree on, in table at, > > http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/biofuelorg.shtml from yours at > http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_compare.html > > The open points are: > Possible crops: > I changed this to "Possible raw material sources", to be sure that I do > not > exclude trees and fruits. I like to have more discussions about this, but > all that I have seen until now points to more source material for > vegetable > oil. > > Soil sensitivity: > Here I am in deep water and need your expertise. It is a very important > point and I would like you to analyze it further. > > Crop rotation problems: > The same as previous point. But I thought with effective oil producing > trees or more choices of crops, it would be easier to overcome. > > Fuel productivity per acre: > Again, the production numbers I have seen for oil are better than for > Ethanol. It is however a weak point, since we do not look at the total > possible production of ethanol and veg oil from the same source. > > Possible bi-products: > The same as for previous point. Veg. oil do opens up for a larger number > of > replacement applications, among those are many in the lubrication field. > > Chemical altering or distilling: > I corrected this. > > Energy for production: > I read a lot and I seems that ethanol is the most energy demanding > process, > oil pressing definitely is the least. Biodiesel as I understand the > process, is much less energy demanding than alcohol. On producing raw > material they are all similar, but distilling is a very energy demanding > process. > > Net energy gain: > The fossil fuel processes are also very energy demanding and not very > effective, but it is mostly conversion processes to marketable products. > Some of the raw material for ethanol, do contain more or less veg oil. We > can maybe add this aspect also, but as I see it, it becomes a part of raw > material evaluation. > > Cost to produce: > See energy for production. > > End use efficiency: > Needed clarification and I changed heading to "End use efficiency for > fuel/technology", this to clarify that a change in fuel/technology will > achieve substantial energy savings. I do not think we will disagree with > this. > > Needed quantity to replace fossil fuel: > Water can be added to gasoline also, with similar energy savings. The > difference is that the water/air have to be added at injection. All > testimonies and technical adjustments point to more quantity use with > replacement of gasoline with ethanol and unchanged quantities with > replacements of diesel. > > Storage time: > I corrected this. > > I do not cover combined production of ethanol and veg oil from the same > source and it would be very useful to discuss this. Maybe it is not a > biodiesel or ethanol business, it could be that you need to combine both > for a good business. > > Hakan > > > At 12:33 PM 12/5/2002 +0100, Hakan Falk wrote: > > >Keith, > > > >Thank you, I will go through it and we will discuss > >the differences. > > > >Hakan > > > > > >At 08:02 PM 12/5/2002 +0900, you wrote: > > >Hi Hakan > > > > > > >It is difficult to make tables in mail, if you cannot use html. > > > >Therefore I also did the tables at the end of, > > > > > > > >http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/biofuelorg.shtml > > > > > > > >Hakan > > > > > >Difficult too to discuss them by email, for the same reason, so I > > >copied your tables and did an alternative version for comparison, > > >here: > > >http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_compare.html > > > > > >Best > > > > > >Keith > > > > > > > > > >At 04:08 PM 12/4/2002 +0100, Hakan Falk wrote: > > > > > > > > >Keith, > > > > > > > > > >Original draft for article at > > > > >http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/biofuelorg.shtml > > > > > > > > > >You just posted several press releases from oil companies and > these are > > > > >quite telling. They touch very much the subject of my article. The > > > > >situation in Poland and the "moonshine" argument, show the > relevance of > > > > >this discussion. David have already started to think about it and > I hope > > > > >that we get more valuable views. > > > > > > > > > >To add to the discussion about centralization versus > > decentralization risk > > > > >for Ethanol and biodiesel/SVO, I have done the following tables. I > is a > > > > >topic for discussion and I am not claiming that I got it right on > the > > > first > > > > >time or on my own. > > > > > > > > > >The following table is a first attempt to map technical > feasibility of > > > > >fossil to bio fuel replacement. > > > > > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > >Biofuels list archives: > >http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > >To unsubscribe, send an email to: > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
