Dear James,
I will be happy to, if it is a "ready for use" technology and anyone of us could start a bio fuel business around it. The concept of my article is bio fuel business. With the demand of "ready for use" technologies, the subject is surprisingly narrow and it says something about the real stage of things, on short and medium term. Toyota and Honda have just leased fuel cell cars and they say that production of the cars is planned to start in about 8-9 years. It will take at least 3-4 replacement cycles before it will have a major impact on the fleets. Maybe I will still be alive and in this case I am 100 years old, but I will remember it and include in the list at that time. If I forget it, I am sure that you or Keith will remind me. (do not feel offended by my joke, it is only their as a reminder of the time lines) It is however interesting and I have noted it down and will expand the table on a more long term subject. Hakan At 10:26 AM 12/5/2002 -0800, you wrote: >Might you want to also provide a table with Hydrogen and producer gas >also? Seems to me to be somewhat narrow, unless that is the intention. > >James Slayden > >On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Hakan Falk wrote: > > > > > Hi Keith, > > > > Thank you for your response and I am somewhat uncomfortable with the > > second > > table. I am not sure of that the presentation of political - commercial > > - > > influencing points are suitable in a table. Need to think more about it. > > Therefore I like to discuss the basics first and the table > > "Characteristics, comparing Ethanol, Biodiesel and SVO." first. > > > > I do think that the table "Characteristics, comparing Ethanol, Biodiesel > > and SVO." can be useful and ask you or others to suggest points that I > > maybe have missed. I must also underline that this is not a question of > > choice between them, they are all desperately needed and that is also > > covered in the table. On those points we agree. > > > > I have marked the points we agree on, in table at, > > > > http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/biofuelorg.shtml from yours at > > http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_compare.html > > > > The open points are: > > Possible crops: > > I changed this to "Possible raw material sources", to be sure that I do > > not > > exclude trees and fruits. I like to have more discussions about this, but > > all that I have seen until now points to more source material for > > vegetable > > oil. > > > > Soil sensitivity: > > Here I am in deep water and need your expertise. It is a very important > > point and I would like you to analyze it further. > > > > Crop rotation problems: > > The same as previous point. But I thought with effective oil producing > > trees or more choices of crops, it would be easier to overcome. > > > > Fuel productivity per acre: > > Again, the production numbers I have seen for oil are better than for > > Ethanol. It is however a weak point, since we do not look at the total > > possible production of ethanol and veg oil from the same source. > > > > Possible bi-products: > > The same as for previous point. Veg. oil do opens up for a larger number > > of > > replacement applications, among those are many in the lubrication field. > > > > Chemical altering or distilling: > > I corrected this. > > > > Energy for production: > > I read a lot and I seems that ethanol is the most energy demanding > > process, > > oil pressing definitely is the least. Biodiesel as I understand the > > process, is much less energy demanding than alcohol. On producing raw > > material they are all similar, but distilling is a very energy demanding > > process. > > > > Net energy gain: > > The fossil fuel processes are also very energy demanding and not very > > effective, but it is mostly conversion processes to marketable products. > > Some of the raw material for ethanol, do contain more or less veg oil. We > > can maybe add this aspect also, but as I see it, it becomes a part of raw > > material evaluation. > > > > Cost to produce: > > See energy for production. > > > > End use efficiency: > > Needed clarification and I changed heading to "End use efficiency for > > fuel/technology", this to clarify that a change in fuel/technology will > > achieve substantial energy savings. I do not think we will disagree with > > this. > > > > Needed quantity to replace fossil fuel: > > Water can be added to gasoline also, with similar energy savings. The > > difference is that the water/air have to be added at injection. All > > testimonies and technical adjustments point to more quantity use with > > replacement of gasoline with ethanol and unchanged quantities with > > replacements of diesel. > > > > Storage time: > > I corrected this. > > > > I do not cover combined production of ethanol and veg oil from the same > > source and it would be very useful to discuss this. Maybe it is not a > > biodiesel or ethanol business, it could be that you need to combine both > > for a good business. > > > > Hakan > > > > > > At 12:33 PM 12/5/2002 +0100, Hakan Falk wrote: > > > > >Keith, > > > > > >Thank you, I will go through it and we will discuss > > >the differences. > > > > > >Hakan > > > > > > > > >At 08:02 PM 12/5/2002 +0900, you wrote: > > > >Hi Hakan > > > > > > > > >It is difficult to make tables in mail, if you cannot use html. > > > > >Therefore I also did the tables at the end of, > > > > > > > > > >http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/biofuelorg.shtml > > > > > > > > > >Hakan > > > > > > > >Difficult too to discuss them by email, for the same reason, so I > > > >copied your tables and did an alternative version for comparison, > > > >here: > > > >http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_compare.html > > > > > > > >Best > > > > > > > >Keith > > > > > > > > > > > > >At 04:08 PM 12/4/2002 +0100, Hakan Falk wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >Keith, > > > > > > > > > > > >Original draft for article at > > > > > >http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/biofuelorg.shtml > > > > > > > > > > > >You just posted several press releases from oil companies and > > these are > > > > > >quite telling. They touch very much the subject of my article. The > > > > > >situation in Poland and the "moonshine" argument, show the > > relevance of > > > > > >this discussion. David have already started to think about it and > > I hope > > > > > >that we get more valuable views. > > > > > > > > > > > >To add to the discussion about centralization versus > > > decentralization risk > > > > > >for Ethanol and biodiesel/SVO, I have done the following tables. I > > is a > > > > > >topic for discussion and I am not claiming that I got it right on > > the > > > > first > > > > > >time or on my own. > > > > > > > > > > > >The following table is a first attempt to map technical > > feasibility of > > > > > >fossil to bio fuel replacement. > > > > > > > > > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > >Biofuels list archives: > > >http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > > > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > > >To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Biofuels list archives: > > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Biofuels list archives: >http://archive.nnytech.net/ > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. >To unsubscribe, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! 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