--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Harbican" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I agree up to a point, but, that point is what the other planes would do after the first crash, it could have been a mistake by a stupid hijacker ( that thought he knew how to fly ), but, the second crash showed it was not. Then again I normally work by the rule of 3, 1st time it's happenstance, the 2nd time its coincidence, 3rd time conspiracy. In the case of 9/11, I went from happenstance right to conspiracy, because the odd were just too long and I remember reading the Tom Clancy, and I didn't even know that they ( the aircraft ) were hijacked.
You are right, people made decisions some were right, some were wrong. One of the wrong decisions was to arm all the fighters to the max, instead of just sending some up right away, with nothing but ammo for the guns, and send the rest up later. Another was waiting 15 - 20 min to let NORAD know about the first of the hijackings. The list could go on but why bother at this point? I still think that the Pres. was in shock over a scenario that was never practiced, that is my opinion, but, I have been told that voicing my opinion on this list, is rewriting history, so I won't bother going any farther about other opinions, we certainly wouldn't want to learn that the Japanese won WW2, by dropping atomic bombs on Portland, and Seattle, now would we. Greg H. ----- Original Message ----- From: Hakan Falk To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 09:28 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: THE HOT MOVIE Greg, No one have ever said it was not a mess and many mistakes done. The only thing I am saying is that many knew that it was hijackings, about one minute after they left the route in the flight plan. This is the system and it works very well. After that it was a matter of judgements and some human errors, that made the decision making too slow. When the first plane slammed in the WTC, it was not only known that the plane was hijacked, but also what the others would do. The last 10 to 15 minutes they were all tracked by ground radar and identified, because it was air control areas and because the hijackers had no means to turn off the transponders.. Before the first attack on WTC, nobody could guess the goals for the hijackings. If the others would have had fighter at their tail, something might have been done. I suspect that the Pennsylvania one was rightfully shot down on the Vice President's order, but it is a complete fog around what really happened in this case. The only thing that I accuse the president of is his reaction on the news about hijackings, which I do think was human and not very surprising. I am not blaming Bush for not preventing 911, because I think that it would be a long shot to do so. I do not blame him for a completely passive reaction to the hijackings, because it would be natural to wait for reception of the hijackers demand. What I do blame Bush of is the blatant tries, and in some cases successes, to draw political capital of the situation and paint himself as a decisive president. I also blame him for taking this as a motive to invade Iraq. Us had only one reason to invade Iraq and it was the same as Japan had for its attack of Pearl Harbor. Japan did it, in hope that they would get oil for its war efforts and US did it to be able to fill up their SUVs and keep the economy going. Not very heroic reasons, but very understandable, looked from national economic and security interests. What is still questionable, is if it is going to be a success or if it is going to backfire with dire consequences, as for Japan. I think that Bush in this case failed, by not assigning 2 to 3 times more troops to the venture. By having a dragged out period of violence and lack of security, he lost the initiative and by that caused severe damages to US and its international standing. How could he risk the whole venture on a belief that the Iraqi people would welcome US as liberator and "win their hearts and minds". It is an unforgivable stupidity, which brought a lot of unnecessary pain to the Iraqi people. No wonder that Shalabi lost his favored status, Bush must be very angry at him, for believing in him. Hakan At 16:32 05/07/2004, you wrote: >Lets, think it through. > >Up to 9/11 hijackers didn't hijack to get a hold of a airliner in order to >actually take out a building ( at least in the U.S. ), so why should this >be any different than those times other that the fact a airliner was >hijacked within, a with second and third with in minutes of each other and >the fourth, about a half an hour after the third, all of them within about >an hour, and at least one of them is believed to extended airline courtesy >to an airline crewman ( in this case one of the terrorist with a stolen >uniform, is invited it sit in the cockpit jump seat ): > >From: ><http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/topic.jsp?topic=sept11_flights>http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/topic.jsp?topic=sept11_flights > >AA Flight 11 >Approximately 8:14 am > >UA Flight 175 >Approximately 8:40 am > >AA Flight 77 >Approximately 8:45 > >UA Flight 93 >Before 9:27 > >NORAD is not informed until approximately 8:30 about Flight 11, and >crashed into the north tower 15 min after that, Flight 77 is hijacked at >about the same time. > >Flight 175 hits the south tower at 9:02, about 20 min after it was hijacked. > >So there is confusion in all the ranks as to just how many aircraft have >been hijacked ( in fact if you read the full timelines for each of the >flights, you would see, that at some points there is still confusion about >when some of the aircraft were hijacked ). > >A commander in the military wants the aircraft doing the intercepts fully >armed, ( despite being told that will take an hour ), just guns ( just 10 >min ), guns and heatseaking missiles ( 30 min ) guns, heatseakers, and >radar homing missiles ( 1 hr ), and this is at after 9 o'clock. > >From: > ><http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline_flight_ua_93>http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline_flight_ua_93 > >" Shortly after the second WTC crash, calls from fighter units start >"pouring into NORAD and sector operations centers, asking, 'What can we do >to help?' At Syracuse, New York, an ANG commander [tells Northeast Air >Defense Sector (NEADS) commander Robert] Marr, 'Give me 10 min. and I can >give you hot guns. Give me 30 min. and I'll have heat-seeker [missiles]. >Give me an hour and I can give you slammers [Amraams].' " Marr replies, " > >As you can see, there is confusion all over the place, but it wasn't until >after the second WTC crash that it was known that it was an attack, >instead on a stupid hijacker at the controls. In fact fighters scrambled >for flight 11 were in the area ( 60 miles away ), but, no one thought to >tell the F-15s of the threat that flight 175 posed, because no one >realized that it was there or that someone was in the area, that might >have done something about it. > >From: > ><http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline_flight_ua_175>http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline_flight_ua_175 > >The minute Flight 175 hits the south tower, F-15 pilot Major Daniel Nash >says that clear visibility allows him to see smoke pour out of Manhattan, >even though NORAD says he is 71 miles away. However, he says he can't >recall actually being told of the Flight 11 hit. [Cape Cod Times, 8/21/02] >He isn't told about the danger of Flight 175 until after it too has >crashed and he is 60 miles away. > >To say that the president knew what was going on and that it was an attack >from the start, when that much confusion was going through the regular >ranks is speculation at best, because he would not have had anymore >information that what his advisers could give him. > >Greg H. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! 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