hi michael. >I don't think I'm off base on this. not sure specifically what you're referring to. but i wasn't trying to suggest that by associating the two ideas ("lone individual" and "anarchist") you were maligning anarchists or anarchism. >My statement/opinion simply said that an anarchist would not think it's impossible "for >the lone individual to protect their own basic rights." >If you thought that I was alluding to folklore, it was not meant that way. I think that an >anarchist, in its most general meaning (above) could see this as quite possible. It's only >an opinion. speaking in terms of the "most general meaning", any person of almost any political or philosophical persuasion *could* see this (that the 'lone individual' could 'protect their own basic rights') as possible. but your comment made such a point of view conditional on being an anarchist.
conditionals introduce a sense of specifity. in this case, that there is something specific about being an anarchist that would allow him/her to believe such a thing. add to that the fact that people (in the u.s., at least) don't normally hear/read the word anarchist and think of the paris commune, or the russian imperial navy, for example. so even if you were thinking in very general terms, this is not how it reads. rather, it reads (whether or not you intended it to) as being rooted in the common misconception of anarchists as being sort of hyper-radical, nihilistic individualists or sociopaths, and perhaps the stereotype of the bomb-throwing anarchist as well. not sure i put that very well, but i think you get my general idea. anyway, my reply was not intended to level accusations or flame you. just to inform. >As for the labor movement, I would argue that the beginning of the labor movement had >more to do with admirers of Lenin and Trotsky rather than anarchists. No. The roots go farther back than that. I'm referring to the late ninteenth century, roughly 1870's to 1880's. >Not only did Debs run for president as a socialist, his rise to popularity was (at least >partly) due to his involvement in the Industrial Workers of the World. He was only one >of many socialists who volunteered to help the struggle. >You said: "they would be replaced with local self-rule by worker's cooperatives." >I don't question your history Chris. actually, i wasn't so much talking about history, as about the political theory. the history and the debates that rage about it, get rather complex and sometimes blurry. to whit: >However, I think "local self rule" quickly gave way to >a consolidation of power and later collective bargaining. are you talking about the transformation of political thought in the american labor movement? or revolutionary russia (whether in terms of ideology or actual events)? >The workers cooperatives >relayed the sentiment of the workers to the larger bodies and (IMO) looked similar to a >Soviet, Lenin and Trotsky's interpretation of "worker's cooperatives". from a leninist or trotskyist perspective, soviets would be the prototype for social/political organization in the future, after the dictatorship of the proletariat metamorphosed into a true communist society (utopia?). meanwhile, they would theoretically be the democratic building blocks for a communist state (presumably a proletarian representative republican dictatorship, lol) that would lead the society to that true communist future. >That's my understanding of the events. If it doesn't match the consensus reached by >scholars of that period (which I am not), then I stand corrected. i'm not sure there is a consensus, but as far as i'm concerned there's no doubt that in 1918, russia was experiencing a general, unorganized revolutionary uprising, among which there were some anarchist elements to be sure. the bolsheviks merely watched its gathering momentum and opportunistically stepped in right as it was reaching critical mass. the debate still rages about how things went wrong (IMO) from there. >However, I need you to point me toward the references. . . . i have read a number of surces on this stuff, though mostly quite a few years ago. so no titles or authors come to mind. i can only suggest googling "anarchist" with any one or combination of the following: paris commune; levellers; haymarket; russian navy; october (or russian, or soviet, or bolshevik, etc,) revolution; makhnov; spanish civil war. for a broader background (beyond october 1918) of socialist thought a/o the international socialist movement, you might try looking up "socialist international" if you have a good public library or university library nearby, you can try there as well. >. . .which will teach/convince me otherwise. actually, i wasn't trying to convince you of any particular interpretation of history or historical events. just to point out an apparent inaccuracy. :^) cheers, -chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: mike, in spite of common folklore, anarchism does not mean every man for himself. sometimes referred to as 'libertarian' socialsim (as opposed to 'authoritarian' models such as communism), the basic tenet is the abolition of the detached, alienated authority of government and its dehumanizing instrument of social control, bureaucracy. they would be replaced with local self-rule by worker's cooperatives. anarchism was a very important current in the early days of the labor movement (including in the united states) as well as the international socialist movement. significantly, the international worker's holiday, mayday, honors the anniversary of the police-instigated unrest at a largely anarchist labor gathering in chicago's haymarket square. best, -chris b. _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/