Doug, I don't know what else is falling apart in your life, but you need to take a break.
my previous email was clearly labelled a reply to jeff's email, not that you couldn't reply, but really your rant had absolutely nothing to do with my email, which again had nothing to do with logos. cheers Jonathan Chetwynd On 9 Sep 2006, at 18:32, Doug Schepers wrote: Hi, Jonathan- Jonathan Chetwynd wrote: > > In case of complete mozilla SVG developer obtuseness as currently > available in bucket loads: it is an accessibility issue, a usability > issue and if commonsense and commercial realism aren't enough an > enhancement request as well. However they know best... "audio will > irritate most people" Quit taking my words out of context. As I said to you on IRC a couple days ago, "peepo, I don't want you to have the impression that I don't think audio is important. I do. I love that SVGT1.2 now has a standardized way to implement it in browsers. I will push for them to do so [browsers to implement it]. I just don't think it's needed for a logo." My statement was clearly about specific content (the logo), not about the capability of the UA. Imagine this scenario: a user goes to a page where the author indicates that to view the content, they will need an SVG viewer; this was common in the early days of Flash, and until SVG is widely available on IE, I think this is may be the most common use case for the logo (I know my company uses a similar indicator on the log-in screen). The user either has SVG capability (they are using a modern browser or have a plug-in), or they go and get it (we hope!) and come back. There, they are hit with the "ding-Ding-DING" or "fwoosh!" or (basso profundo) "SVG Powered!" sound of the logo. Maybe they ignore it, or maybe they hear it once and think, "Hah, that's cute". Then they visit the site again. And again. And they go to another site that uses the SVG logo. And as SVG becomes even more popular (I'm an optimist, remember), they hear that sound more and more. The user doesn't want to browse with the sound off on their computer because they are listening to their iTunes, or disable audio in their browser because they are streaming Pandora. I have no doubt that they would come to associate that sound with SVG, it's true... but the flip side is that they would start associating SVG with that dang sound that keeps hitting them every time they stumble on a page using SVG. It happens when they are browsing at work, in a cafe, etc. For me, the irritation would start to really kick in right around the 2nd or 3rd time, and grow from there. Sorry, but I don't want SVG to become associated with the aural equivalent of the <blink> tag. So, what does a sensible SVG author do? They take out the sound, or use the sound-free version (which I assure you, the logo contest would provide). Accessibility, as you know, is something that only works well when it is consistent (such as by providing an inobtrusive text fallback). If the sound is present some places, but not others, it merely sends a mixed indicator to those who would benefit from it, which is actually even worse. Finally, what makes you think that visually-impaired people want to be assailed by sound any more than sighted people? Do you think I like having Flash banners blinking at me from the sidebar or top of the page? Let's be clear: when you are talking about accessibility, are you talking about for the visually-impaired, or for some other group? We could provide a more discrete way to activate the sound than on load time, such as when the user focuses it (clicking on the logo, or tabbing to it). But this has several drawbacks: 1) It drastically increases the file size (in which case authors will use the smaller sound-free version, see above); 2) If the user already has a screen-reader, the sound would obscure the voicing of the text equivalent provided by the metadata/text fallback; 3) Finding a professional-quality distinctive sound would be even more difficult and expensive than finding a professional-quality logo, since it's not as common a hobby and is even more subject to taste (and I'm not willing to settle for a mediocre sound). Now imagine some different scenarios: I am building a Web application, and I provide discreet but clear UI sounds... clicks, slides, zooms (for the record, this is not theoretical, I've done this at a client's behest, for special-needs kids, and it worked well). Or, I provide an audio help system, or a tutorial. Or I make a simple audio mixer in SVG. Or I have an audio and/or video streaming player in SVG in my browser. Or, like your site, when the user focuses a particular icon, a specific sound is played. These are all good uses of sound in SVG... or rather, good uses of sound on the Web. They have context and enhance --rather than detract from-- the user experience. I'm very glad that we are starting to make this possible (after way too long). Having it on a logo? Not appropriate. Regards- -Doug ----- To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my membership" ---- Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! 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