Hi Jeff,
First off, I will say that there are many impressive Ajax toolkits out
there. I am going to point out the virtues of two such toolkits (ie., two
out of about 200), but I want to emphasize that there are lots of great
options in the Ajax space. (The OpenAjax Alliance's mission is to make sure
there is good interoperability between all of this great innovation around
Ajax )
The first Ajax toolkit to highlight is Dojo, which is particularly relevant
to this community because of its SVG-centric Dojo2D component. Dojo is
impressive technology to me. Very nice architectural foundation. Some large
companies, such as my company, IBM, have jumped onto the Dojo bandwagon and
are helping with that open source effort. Dylan Schiemann, one of the
founders of Dojo (and someone who has participated in the SVG community!),
will be giving a talk at AJAXWorld Conference and Expo (Oct 3-4, Santa
Clara, CA) that describes current status with Dojo2D today.
You mention yet another impressive Ajax toolkit with OpenLaszlo. I have
seen recent demos of OpenLaszlo's DHTML support. Very cool and slick. It
looks to me at the 5000ft level that you can do pretty much anything with
OpenLaszlo that you can do with Flex. (Remember that Laszlo did LZX some
time before Adobe did MXML.) With their upcoming Ajax support, OpenLaszlo
now supports rich interfaces via open standards. The "Open" part of
OpenLaszlo probably refers to the fact that their RIA code base has been
turned over to an open source project.
While I have suggested to Adobe that they hand off parts of the ASV code
base to open source, I don't see hugely compelling value to a *new* SVG
browser plugin at this point, especially given the Mozilla/Firefox support
for HTML+SVG and the fact that groundwork has been laid to build an IE
ActiveX control that includes the Mozilla codebase.
Jon
Jon Ferraiolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Web Architect, Emerging Technologies
IBM, Menlo Park, CA
"Jeff Schiller"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
tmail.com> To
Sent by: [email protected]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] cc
hoogroups.com
Subject
[svg-developers] Re: Is Adobe's
09/07/2006 08:30 greed clearing the way for XAML
PM
Please respond to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
hoogroups.com
Actually Jon, I agree with both of your recent points... you stole my
thunder on both accounts! ;)
1) Watch out for Dojo 0.4 for the cross-browser 2D graphics API (VML
on IE and SVG everywhere else). I've been hearing good things,
anyway.
2) Watch for IE8+ (i.e. something after IE7) to support SVG. Chris
Wilson has been pretty public about the need to support a core set of
web standards, of which he considers SVG a part of.
3) I'll mention a third point: OpenLaszlo has been working hard on
expanding its offerings to support multiple compilation targets. By
the end of the year they will support compiling to DHTML as well as
Flash. There is already some internal work on doing the same for SVG
(though I suspect that SVG support could be rolled into DHTML at some
point). Anyway, it's high time we started moving up the stack anyway
and getting out of coding applications with a set of cobbled-together
HTML, JS, SVG, XML, CSS files...
In the meantime though, I really think an open source SVG 1.1 browser
plugin is a worthwhile effort, simply because you can never have too
many baskets for your eggs.
Regards,
Jeff
--- In [email protected], Jon Ferraiolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
>
> Guy,
> I have been biting my tongue, but your email was too provocative.
> Generally, I agree with your points. My additional comments:
>
> * The open source phenomenon is huge. The same phenomenon that
transformed
> the server world (what with LAMP) is starting to affect the client
world.
> Although the threat isn't imminent, over the next few years MS is
in danger
> of losing control over the browsing experience to Mozilla and
Safari, both
> of which are open source and both of which implement W3C standards
> successfully. Firefox's market share is likely to accelerate in the
> short-term as Enterprises discover its merits as a strong platform
for
> application development and begin to require its usage instead of
IE for
> Enterprise applications. This will result in larger numbers of
people who
> start to feel comfortable with Firefox (because of being forced to
use it
> at their company) and therefore comfortable in abandoning IE for
browsing
> the Web. (Note that Google is investing a ton of money in Mozilla
these
> days. Microsoft is very much aware of this.)
>
> * As a result, Microsoft will be forced to re-embrace standards in
order to
> stop the loss of market share and reclaim control over their own
Windows
> platform. Microsoft will be forced to do whatever it takes in order
to push
> Firefox's (and Safari's) market shares down below 5% once again, and
> (unfortunately for them) in today's world that includes world-class
support
> for open standards. And, thanks to the leadership at Firefox,
Safari, and
> Opera, SVG has become a requirement. Microsoft has been aware of
all of
> this for a long time. Therefore, I expect to see SVG support in IE
betas by
> the end of 2007.
>
> * I would be hugely surprised if Microsoft followed Adobe's lead and
> announced VML end-of-life in the same (unacceptable) manner as
Adobe.
> Microsoft is considerably more sensitive to supporting their
existing
> community of developers. When VML is EOL'd, Microsoft will give
something
> like a 5-year window before VML quits working with new versions of
IE.
>
> Or at least that what my personal crystal ball shows.
>
> Jon
>
>
>
>
> Guy
Morton
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
au> To
> Sent by: svg-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> svg-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] cc
>
hoogroups.com
>
Subject
> Re: [svg-developers] Re: Is
Adobe's
> 09/07/2006 04:20 greed clearing the way for
XAML
>
PM
>
>
> Please respond
to
> svg-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
hoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yes, it gives the lie to the lip service they give to standards
> adherence. M$ in particular only support those standards that they
> feel benefit their business (like someone else said, there's no
other
> reason for them to release software for free).
>
> Honestly, how hard would it have been from MS to enable native SVG
> support, given that they already had VML, which has been in IE since
> v5? Should we really believe their weasel words about it coming in
> IE8? I don't think so!
>
> I'm now wondering how long it will be before MS announces the EOL
for
> VML, as a way of trying to screw projects like http://dojo.jot.com/
> Dojo2D and push everyone towards using XAML.
>
> Personally, I'd be VERY reluctant to start porting apps to XAML,
> given that at the moment even M$ are not committing to it being
> available on anything but Vista - that's going to be a pretty
limited
> market for a long time, even putting to one side that it leaves any
> non-windows users out in the cold. This might be fine for corporate
> applications, but wake up people, there's plenty of users moving
away
> from Windows these days! From my web logs I'd say only 75% of users
> are using IE now - 25% of users is a pretty big chunk to lose by
> building your app using IE/Windows-dependent technology!
>
> A cornerstone of the web is that it be accessible to all - this
means
> it must be cross-platform compatible. MS has never really wanted
this
> to be so, but it is. They'll keep trying to push a windows-centric
> world view on the world, but i believe ultimately this must fail.
The
> web (and the world) is bigger than Microsoft (and Macrobe).
>
> Guy
>
>
>
>
> On 08/09/2006, at 8:25 AM, tbone58x wrote:
>
> > So much for W3C establishd standards. How can you just walk away
> > from this on such short notice?
> >
> > How can M$ and Adobe be part of the W3C when they do not adhere to
> > what the group is all about? SVG has been around for nearly five
> > years and is not slated to be part of IE7 - sad...
> >
> > --- In [email protected], "Randy George" <rkgeorge@>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Geoffrey,
> >>
> >> I agree with your analysis. Here's my soapbox for what
its
> > worth :)
> >>
> >> Speaking honestly as a small independent developer,
without
> > an IE
> >> option sticking with SVG is not really feasible, switching to
Flash
> > narrows
> >> options and now also has a questionable life expectancy, while
> > switching to
> >> WFS-XAML is a painful but compelling opportunity to survive.
> >>
> >> In the long run rich client technology paves the way
for web
> >> services. MS is pulling out all stops to own the rich client
> > technology
> >> base. This could give them the competitive advantage in web
services
> >> analogous to OS ownership in the desktop hay day. MS would love
to
> > use their
> >> waning OS advantage to leverage into rich client ownership before
> > the window
> >> of opportunity closes. MS is primarily concerned about the next
> > generation
> >> struggle for web services ownership, think Google. Though, I
still
> > wonder if
> >> the XML factor reduces any competitive leverage MS hopes to gain.
> >>
> >> Adobe should be highly commended for their early and
extensive
> >> support of SVG, but their long term survival is on the line. From
> > their
> >> point of view SVG was only a competitive advantage against
> > Macromedia and
> >> they found a different way to counter that threat. Adobe's
ceiling
> > is the
> >> competitive world of MS and Google as they struggle for ownership
> > of web
> >> services.
> >>
> >> Vista/WFS-XAML is projected to be available about the
same
> > time as
> >> ASV EOL (but then Bill has been wrong before). Alternative native
> > browser
> >> SVG is still not up to ASV capabilities and without some kind of
IE
> > option,
> >> native SVG only reaches a small percentage of users. WFS-XAML
will
> >> eventually be available to the 80%+ of users on MS IE. Also, WFS-
> > XAML
> >> supercedes SVG in some critical ways: 3D, built in gui widgets,
> > hardware
> >> graphics speed, C#/CLR in place of EcmaScript. XAML will be a
> > better rich
> >> client base than SVG 1.2. Where is SVG 2.0 with 3D vectors, a
built
> > in set
> >> of gui widgets,...?
> >>
> >> If MS is wrong about Vista release dates, there could
be a
> > gap for
> >> rich client web development for IE between the EOL of ASV and the
> > release of
> >> WFS-XAML. An overlapping download option for ASV is the best
> > solution from a
> >> web developer perspective. From an Adobe perspective, attempting
to
> > force
> >> svg rich client development to move to Flash before XAML appears
> > makes some
> >> sense. However, closing down ASV so quickly may have little
effect
> > other
> >> than alienating a small community of developers and raising
nagging
> >> questions about Flash's viability as well.
> >>
> >> As it turns out in 2 years Adobe/Flash could be
gasping for
> > air and
> >> Flash developers should take note what Adobe policy has been
toward
> > the SVG
> >> developer community. I imagine Adobe's bottom line strategic
> > concern is
> >> creation tools not rendering. Flash developers must likely plan
for
> > a
> >> similar migration to XAML in just a few more years.
> >>
> >> The Open source Mozilla community will also be forced
to
> > counter
> >> WFS-XAML in some way in order to keep from being leapfrogged and
> > then
> >> marginalize. My guess is that XAML rendering in FF will quickly
> > trump
> >> further development of SVG rendering unless MS patents force some
> > kind of
> >> enhanced SVG. Otherwise MS creates a whole new rich client
internet
> > which is
> >> off limits to the open source browser world.
> >>
> >> However you look at it, MS is in the driver's seat in
2007.
> > If they
> >> choose to transcode image/svg+xml to XAML, they could with very
> > little
> >> effort. But why would they support image/svg+xml at all? The
> > Adobe/Flash
> >> world and the FF,Opera/SVG world will both be playing catch up
> >> technologically.
> >>
> >> Ironically XML based rich clients are here to stay
whether
> > XAML or
> >> SVG. Thin clients and fat clients look out!
> >>
> >> rkgeorge
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [email protected] [mailto:svg-
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> On Behalf Of Geoffrey Swenson
> >> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 1:32 AM
> >> To: [email protected]
> >> Subject: [svg-developers] Is Adobe's greed clearing the way for
XAML
> >>
> >> By abandoning SVG, the net effect for us and Adobe is that XAML
is
> > going to
> >> be the way to go.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Unless Adobe massively changes Flash to have a decent editor and
> > improves
> >> the ease of programming I just don't see it gaining a lot of
> > developer
> >> interest. Why should I pay almost $1000 for Flash and its
tedious,
> >> user-hostile graphic editor, the non-intuitive and overly
animation-
> > focused
> >> timeline editor, when the same $1000 buys me the MSDN library
> > including XAML
> >> that was designed from the ground up to be a programmable
graphical
> >> environment?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> If you don't have $1000 for MSDN, just Notepad and a good XAML
book
> > &&
> >> online help should get you a long ways, especially for web-based
> > stuff.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Microsoft can leverage their position as the largest software
> > company to
> >> make XAML a very complete solution in a way that nobody else can
> > manage. I'm
> >> sure that it will be, as usual, somewhat overdeveloped and
bloated,
> > but
> >> since it is part of the graphical underpinnings of Vista, they
must
> > have got
> >> it to work, unlike - for example - Firefox SVG which is still way
> > behind the
> >> soon-to-be-orphaned Adobe plug-in.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> If I am going to have to pick one technology, I'll take the one
> > that runs on
> >> most of the computers. I am also picking the one that makes
> > development
> >> easy. If it happens to be Open Source, fine, but if XAML ends up
> > being the
> >> way to go, so be it. It really helps to have a revenue stream to
> > pay for a
> >> lot of talented work. Just 5% of Microsoft's Vista budget is
> > hundreds of
> >> millions of dollars - even Adobe does not have that kind of money
> > to spend
> >> on this.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> By early next year IE7 and Vista will be released. Almost
everyone
> > running
> >> XP will be automatically upgraded to IE7, so coverage will be
> > fairly large
> >> in a few weeks after the release.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I don't agree with the reviewers that think that Vista / IE7 are
a
> > warmed
> >> over copy of Apple and Firefox. Perhaps the user interfaces are
> > nothing
> >> really new, but under the hood is a whole host of improvements
are
> > going to
> >> make development of custom graphical applications a lot easier.
> > XAML is at
> >> the core of this, and I am looking forward to it.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----
> >> To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> -or-
> >> visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click
"edit
> > my
> >> membership"
> >> ----
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > -or-
> > visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit
> > my membership"
> > ----
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> -----
> To unsubscribe send a message to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> -or-
> visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit
my
> membership"
> ----
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
-----
To unsubscribe send a message to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my
membership"
----
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-----
To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-or-
visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my
membership"
----
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
