I really don’t understand why we are wasting everyone’s time debating this.
Yes I think there is a correlation. Yes this is precisely why I posted the heat map. Of course \ is not needed a lot, but when it is, *it is inconvenient for *some* people*. I am not making this up. You can cite several other users from this very thread. I tried showing that it is quite distant on the keyboard from where the user’s hands rest. I tried showing that there are other keys at their finger tips where their hand is usually resting. 1. Do I know every international keyboard layout? No. 2. Are we pretending that \ was picked because it was easier for international users? If I am wrong, I would love to hear more…else let’s not pretend that \ was the optimal key for all. Like I have said repeatedly…I don’t care if \ is removed. At this point we are wasting other people’s time. I have just tried to be a voice for those that find it awkward and inconvenient. I tried not to base this just on opinion but on some *evidence*, but apparently that isn’t sufficient enough for some. Brandon > On Jun 22, 2016, at 12:20 PM, Jeremy Pereira > <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> On 22 Jun 2016, at 17:02, Brandon Knope <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> No it shows where your hand frequently is also > > And you don’t think there is a correlation between where the frequently > pressed keys are and where your hands are? If you were needing to press the \ > key a lot, there would be a hotspot over it. Then you could say “look, I need > to press this key a lot and it’s miles away from the other hotspot”. > >> >> Brandon >> >>> On Jun 22, 2016, at 12:01 PM, Jeremy Pereira >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On 22 Jun 2016, at 16:41, Brandon Knope <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> My point was not to argue for the removal of \. My point was that there is >>>> a measurable way to test the usability of such a key >>> >>> >>> Your heat map doesn’t test the usability of a key, it tests the frequency >>> with which it was pressed. The fact that there was no coloured blob on the >>> backslash key just means you don’t use it very often. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Brandon >>>> >>>>> On Jun 22, 2016, at 11:30 AM, Jeremy Pereira >>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I find it somewhat disturbing that we are now trying to base language >>>>> design around the layout of a US English keyboard. >>>>> >>>>> “\” on my keyboard (British Macbook Pro Retina) is right next to the >>>>> return key. It’s also much closer to the parentheses characters than $ is >>>>> and (if you assume we are going to replace parentheses with braces as was >>>>> suggested upthread) right next to the brace keys. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, your heat map evidence actually negates the argument. If it was a >>>>> frequently used key, it would have a hot spot of its own. It’s not (I >>>>> tried it on some random samples of my own code), so that implies it is >>>>> not a key that is used very often, which further implies it *should* be a >>>>> little out of the way. >>>>> >>>>> *The* escape character for strings is “\”. Please let’s not introduce a >>>>> second one. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 22 Jun 2016, at 00:08, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution >>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Actually… we can go pretty scientific on this sort of thing and heat map >>>>>> keyboard usage to get a better picture of how “usable” this is. >>>>>> >>>>>> I pasted a file that contains seven \’s in it and heat mapped it at >>>>>> https://www.patrick-wied.at/projects/heatmap-keyboard/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Even *with* several \’s throughout my source file the majority of my key >>>>>> presses take place much closer to the $ key than the \ key. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think we can all argue about what is clearer or not, but I think for >>>>>> the majority of us, the \ key is quite inconvenient compared to the keys >>>>>> around where we type the most. >>>>>> >>>>>> I also ran several of iOS 10’s sample code through the heat map and >>>>>> continue to get pretty similar results: the \ is much further from the >>>>>> hottest part of the keyboard than the ones closer to where your hand >>>>>> usually rests. >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe this is flawed, but I think it is hard to argue that the \ is easy >>>>>> to type when there are far more usable alternatives. >>>>>> >>>>>> Brandon >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jun 21, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Daniel Resnick via swift-evolution >>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I also disagree for the same reasons that Gwynne and Brent mentioned: I >>>>>>> find '\(...)' easy to read, fine to type, and consistent with other >>>>>>> string escaping syntax. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Brent Royal-Gordon via swift-evolution >>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> I find that typing \(var) is very disruptive to my typing flow. The >>>>>>>> more I code in Swift, the more I like it, but every time I'm coding >>>>>>>> and then have to hiccup while typing \ then ( causes me to be annoyed. >>>>>>>> I know, it's minor, but it isn't a key combination that flows quickly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would much rather have $() or perhaps ${} (like Groovy lang) or >>>>>>>> perhaps @() to go along with other uses of @ throughout the language. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Even though I'm used to Perl's and Ruby's interpolation syntaxes, I >>>>>>> immediately liked `\(…)`. It's parsimonious: Rather than taking a third >>>>>>> character (besides \ and ") to mean something special in a string >>>>>>> literal, it reuses one of the existing ones. There's no need to escape >>>>>>> a character you wouldn't otherwise have to touch, or to think of >>>>>>> another character as "magical" in a string. It fits nicely with the >>>>>>> rest of the syntax, with `\` indicating a special construct and then >>>>>>> `()` delimiting an expression, just as they do elsewhere in the >>>>>>> language. It's an elegant solution to a problem traditionally solved >>>>>>> inelegantly. It's very Swifty in that way. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A shifted key, like $ or @, followed by another shifted key like (, >>>>>>>> allows for a much faster flow and they are much closer to the home >>>>>>>> keys than \ which is nearly as far from home keys as possible (and >>>>>>>> awkward). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't have any trouble typing it personally. If you find yourself >>>>>>> accidentally typing `\9` or `|(`, we could probably offer an error for >>>>>>> the former or warning for the latter with a fix-it. But if you're >>>>>>> complaining that it takes a tiny fraction of a second longer to type >>>>>>> than `$(` would, then honestly, I just can't bring myself to care. >>>>>>> Swift optimizes for code reading. If we wanted to optimize for code >>>>>>> typing instead, we'd have a very different style. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Brent Royal-Gordon >>>>>>> Architechies >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> swift-evolution mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> swift-evolution mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> swift-evolution mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > _______________________________________________ swift-evolution mailing list [email protected] https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
