I prefer "\" as the consistent escape character in Swift. It's used in many programming languages and (I find it) easy to skim over.
- David > On 23 Jun 2016, at 22:21, James Hillhouse via swift-evolution > <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > > I’m going to register a -1 on this proposal. I appreciate the work that went > into it, but I just don’t think any advantages for the developer community as > a whole weight enough to warrant the change. > >> On Jun 23, 2016, at 4:41 AM, Jeremy Pereira via swift-evolution >> <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: >> >> >>> On 22 Jun 2016, at 17:27, Brandon Knope <bkn...@me.com> wrote: >>> >>> Of course \ is not needed a lot but when it is, *it is inconvenient for >>> *some* people*. I am not making this up. You can cite several other users >>> from this very thread. >> >> That’s the point. Convenient key stroke sequences should be used for things >> you need a lot before things you don’t use a lot. >> >>> >>> I tried showing that it is quite distant on the keyboard from where the >>> user’s hands rest. I tried showing that there are other keys at their >>> finger tips where their hand is usually resting. >>> >>> 1. Do I know every international keyboard layout? No. >>> 2. Are we pretending that \ was picked because it was easier for >>> international users? If I am wrong, I would love to hear more…else let’s >>> not pretend that \ was the optimal key for all. >> >> No, it was picked because it is the escape character for strings. The escape >> character(s) for strings need to be few in number (one is ideal IMO) and >> characters that you aren’t likely to need to type in a string as literals. $ >> is a particularly bad choice due to its popularity as a currency symbol. > > Changing this would add more syntax, make layers in usage where one character > now exist, and does so without offering a large material advantage, imho. > >> >>> >>> Like I have said repeatedly…I don’t care if \ is removed. At this point we >>> are wasting other people’s time. I have just tried to be a voice for those >>> that find it awkward and inconvenient. >> >> I would challenge the claim that on a US keyboard or a British keyboard, the >> \ key is inconvenient to type. In both cases, you don’t even have to press >> the shift key. If you are a touch typist (I’m not), it’s a slight stretch >> for the right hand, but no more so than the return key or backspace (I use >> backspace *a lot*). > > Compared to typing Obj-C' [], which was when was tired “=“ “delete” or “]” > “\”, Swift in general, including \(), is a breeze. > >> >> However, I do find the \( *combination* a little awkward but this is because >> of the way I normally type the (, but I would find having to type \$ every >> time I wanted a dollar sign intensely annoying because it is so unnecessary. >> >> >>> I tried not to base this just on opinion but on some *evidence*, but >>> apparently that isn’t sufficient enough for some. >> >> And I was just trying to point out that the evidence you presented does not >> show what you think it does. If you present evidence, I’m allowed to dispute >> it aren’t I? >> >>> >>> Brandon >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 22, 2016, at 12:20 PM, Jeremy Pereira >>>> <jeremy.j.pere...@googlemail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 22 Jun 2016, at 17:02, Brandon Knope <bkn...@me.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> No it shows where your hand frequently is also >>>> >>>> And you don’t think there is a correlation between where the frequently >>>> pressed keys are and where your hands are? If you were needing to press >>>> the \ key a lot, there would be a hotspot over it. Then you could say >>>> “look, I need to press this key a lot and it’s miles away from the other >>>> hotspot”. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Brandon >>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 22, 2016, at 12:01 PM, Jeremy Pereira >>>>>> <jeremy.j.pere...@googlemail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 22 Jun 2016, at 16:41, Brandon Knope <bkn...@me.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My point was not to argue for the removal of \. My point was that there >>>>>>> is a measurable way to test the usability of such a key >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Your heat map doesn’t test the usability of a key, it tests the >>>>>> frequency with which it was pressed. The fact that there was no coloured >>>>>> blob on the backslash key just means you don’t use it very often. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brandon >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jun 22, 2016, at 11:30 AM, Jeremy Pereira >>>>>>>> <jeremy.j.pere...@googlemail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I find it somewhat disturbing that we are now trying to base language >>>>>>>> design around the layout of a US English keyboard. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> “\” on my keyboard (British Macbook Pro Retina) is right next to the >>>>>>>> return key. It’s also much closer to the parentheses characters than $ >>>>>>>> is and (if you assume we are going to replace parentheses with braces >>>>>>>> as was suggested upthread) right next to the brace keys. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anyway, your heat map evidence actually negates the argument. If it >>>>>>>> was a frequently used key, it would have a hot spot of its own. It’s >>>>>>>> not (I tried it on some random samples of my own code), so that >>>>>>>> implies it is not a key that is used very often, which further implies >>>>>>>> it *should* be a little out of the way. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *The* escape character for strings is “\”. Please let’s not introduce >>>>>>>> a second one. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 22 Jun 2016, at 00:08, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution >>>>>>>>> <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Actually… we can go pretty scientific on this sort of thing and heat >>>>>>>>> map keyboard usage to get a better picture of how “usable” this is. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I pasted a file that contains seven \’s in it and heat mapped it at >>>>>>>>> https://www.patrick-wied.at/projects/heatmap-keyboard/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Even *with* several \’s throughout my source file the majority of my >>>>>>>>> key presses take place much closer to the $ key than the \ key. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think we can all argue about what is clearer or not, but I think >>>>>>>>> for the majority of us, the \ key is quite inconvenient compared to >>>>>>>>> the keys around where we type the most. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I also ran several of iOS 10’s sample code through the heat map and >>>>>>>>> continue to get pretty similar results: the \ is much further from >>>>>>>>> the hottest part of the keyboard than the ones closer to where your >>>>>>>>> hand usually rests. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maybe this is flawed, but I think it is hard to argue that the \ is >>>>>>>>> easy to type when there are far more usable alternatives. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Brandon >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Jun 21, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Daniel Resnick via swift-evolution >>>>>>>>>> <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I also disagree for the same reasons that Gwynne and Brent >>>>>>>>>> mentioned: I find '\(...)' easy to read, fine to type, and >>>>>>>>>> consistent with other string escaping syntax. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Brent Royal-Gordon via >>>>>>>>>>> swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> I find that typing \(var) is very disruptive to my typing flow. The >>>>>>>>>>> more I code in Swift, the more I like it, but every time I'm coding >>>>>>>>>>> and then have to hiccup while typing \ then ( causes me to be >>>>>>>>>>> annoyed. I know, it's minor, but it isn't a key combination that >>>>>>>>>>> flows quickly. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I would much rather have $() or perhaps ${} (like Groovy lang) or >>>>>>>>>>> perhaps @() to go along with other uses of @ throughout the >>>>>>>>>>> language. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Even though I'm used to Perl's and Ruby's interpolation syntaxes, I >>>>>>>>>> immediately liked `\(…)`. It's parsimonious: Rather than taking a >>>>>>>>>> third character (besides \ and ") to mean something special in a >>>>>>>>>> string literal, it reuses one of the existing ones. There's no need >>>>>>>>>> to escape a character you wouldn't otherwise have to touch, or to >>>>>>>>>> think of another character as "magical" in a string. It fits nicely >>>>>>>>>> with the rest of the syntax, with `\` indicating a special construct >>>>>>>>>> and then `()` delimiting an expression, just as they do elsewhere in >>>>>>>>>> the language. It's an elegant solution to a problem traditionally >>>>>>>>>> solved inelegantly. It's very Swifty in that way. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> A shifted key, like $ or @, followed by another shifted key like (, >>>>>>>>>>> allows for a much faster flow and they are much closer to the home >>>>>>>>>>> keys than \ which is nearly as far from home keys as possible (and >>>>>>>>>>> awkward). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I don't have any trouble typing it personally. If you find yourself >>>>>>>>>> accidentally typing `\9` or `|(`, we could probably offer an error >>>>>>>>>> for the former or warning for the latter with a fix-it. But if >>>>>>>>>> you're complaining that it takes a tiny fraction of a second longer >>>>>>>>>> to type than `$(` would, then honestly, I just can't bring myself to >>>>>>>>>> care. Swift optimizes for code reading. If we wanted to optimize for >>>>>>>>>> code typing instead, we'd have a very different style. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Brent Royal-Gordon >>>>>>>>>> Architechies >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> swift-evolution mailing list >>>>>>>>>> swift-evolution@swift.org >>>>>>>>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> swift-evolution mailing list >>>>>>>>>> swift-evolution@swift.org >>>>>>>>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> swift-evolution mailing list >>>>>>>>> swift-evolution@swift.org >>>>>>>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> swift-evolution mailing list >> swift-evolution@swift.org >> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution > > _______________________________________________ > swift-evolution mailing list > swift-evolution@swift.org > https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
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