> the schema model n peer classes in > one folder so all one would need is to copy the folder n customize it
You mean like, plugin? :) On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 1:51 AM, Farrukh Abbas <[email protected]> wrote: > It has become a long thread ... As some one said before that noframework is > perfect... But I guess what matters is how well does a framework hide all > the complexitites of creating scalable web apps n let's the developer focus > on the solution n business logic suberbly ... Yes it does take time to learn > how to do it the "right" way according to the rules the framework has put > forth but if one sticks to one version I guess there won't be that much of > learning ... Any how I would like to share my 50 cents of experience with > symfony n what I would like it to have... > I have developed 3 to 4 apps on symfony n one thing I find my self doing is > use some module developed for on app into another which ofcourse is possible > but what do u guys think about putting the schema model n peer classes in > one folder so all one would need is to copy the folder n customize it ... > It's just n idea... So would like to know the drawebacks n strenghts of > doing so... For that to be possible the model has to be stand alone... Feel > free to critizie constructively > > -- > Kind regards > Farrukh Abbas > On 23 Sep 2009, at 15:37, Alexandru-Emil Lupu <[email protected]> wrote: > > Ghost3D, > Sincerely, i thought that symfony is hard as well in the begining, but, > there are some things that i haven't saw in other php frameworks, like the > admin generator or the crud. Maybe, just because in the last period i am > using just Django and Symfony in my projects. > If you think that the symfony does not follow the best practices, then you > are free to share with us what are the problems that you found on the system > (allready done that). Instead of criticize so much the framework itself, you > might come with some improvements of the generated code that "follows the > best practices". > > Yeah ... i know that sometimes the symfony generated does not do what i want > to do, so i am starting to extend it. For example, on some objects i am > hydrating manually the foreign objects, something like ROR way... > $user = MyUser::find($criteria, array('ban_status','profile','last_login')) > and so on ... > > AFAIK, not even a framework is able to read the developer's mind. Some of > them have made compromises renouncing to complexity for the simplicity sake, > other are maybe far too complex than they should. > > i propose you something... make a blog application (no plugins allowed) > using symfony, yii, code igniter, cake PHP and tell us what were your work > time for each one of the implementation. The applications should have: i18n > support, form validation, comment management, and also an admin interface > for the posts, a tagging system, and tests. > After that add 2 majour database modifications and see what is the framework > that helps you the most in this case. > > Of course. The logic is not to learn all the framewors, but to see the > development time for each one of it. Afterall we all work with tight > deadlines for our customers. > As someone said earlier: if you need to modify 90% of the generated code, > either you don't do it right, either symfony is not for you. > > Alecs > > > On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 3:55 PM, Phil Moorhouse > <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> Ghost3D, >> >> Firstly, the reason for the move to OO forms has already been covered >> - it's to promote re-use and greater flexibility. This unavoidably >> comes with the cost of increased complexity, and I think from the >> answers above most people here are willing to make that trade-off. >> >> Secondly, Symfony is not meant to be an application generator in the >> way that Drupal or Joomla will build most of your app for you. It's a >> foundation and structure for you to build your app on top of. The >> admin generator can quickly give you a simple back-end and in some >> cases people have bent and shaped it to make entire sites, but there >> is no explicit claim that you can wave a magic wand and Symfony will >> write your entire codebase. If you want that then Symfony is not for >> you. >> >> Thirdly, the directory structure is not complex - it follows a >> convention that is well named and repeated throughout the framework, >> which makes naming decisions and finding old code easy. The empty >> classes are there so that you can extend the base classes without >> changing them, which means you can update your Symfony version or >> rebuild your model without fear of overwriting your own custom code. >> The CRUD is a quickly producible (and completely optional) starting >> point for you to modify, and that's all it's meant to be. The >> configuration has well chosen defaults from the start - the only thing >> you need to provide to get an app up and running are your database >> connection details, so it's hardly "painstaking". >> >> You seem to be of the impression all frameworks should fulfil the same >> needs and take the same approach. If you have a preferred approach, >> then use a framework that implements it, there is no point in arguing >> that Symfony does things the wrong way. >> >> Phil >> >> lazymanc on #symfony / #symfony-off >> >> >> On Sep 23, 12:29 pm, bghost <[email protected]> wrote: >> > Hi Fabien, >> > >> > You say that I write nonsense and stupid e-mails? Well, seems that >> > you did not understand me. So, I'll be here a little more detailed and >> > specific: >> > >> > First: >> > >> > No offense Fabien, this is a well-meaning criticism. I know that you >> > invested so much effort into Symfony. However, you are a little >> > exaggerated forcing object model and object-oriented programming >> > where it is necessary - and where it is not (as is the case with WEB >> > Forms), in the language which already has a very bad and sloppy >> > object model. So you complicate some tasks in the Symfony >> > framework that already was simple and good. >> > >> > Second: >> > >> > Almost 90% of the code that generates the Symfony framework >> > developer need to modify or re-write, because the generated >> > code "does not follow best practice" (per your words) in programming. >> > What is the point and what the benefits of the code generated if 90% >> > of the code must be re-written on the completely different way? >> > >> > Third: >> > >> > The result of all this is a complex directory structure, many empty >> > classes that only contain a skeleton and just inherits one of the base >> > classes, and finally the CRUD code that always must be re-written. >> > And to get all that, the programmer must learn a bunch of different >> > configuration and command line options. >> > And when a programmer, after a painstaking setup and configuration >> > of various options and parameters, finally gets the generated code, >> > he must re-write 90% of the generated code. >> > >> > WBR, >> > Ghost3D >> > >> > On Sep 23, 9:19 am, Fabien Potencier <fabien.potenc...@symfony- >> > >> > project.com> wrote: >> > > Ok, I think we get the point. No need to be rude. Please, go away, use >> > > whatever framework you want, and stop writing nonsense emails. >> > >> > > Thanks, >> > > Fabien >> > >> > > -- >> > > Fabien Potencier >> > > Sensio CEO - symfony lead developer >> > > sensiolabs.com | symfony-project.org | fabien.potencier.org >> > > Tél: +33 1 40 99 80 80 >> > >> > > bghost wrote: >> > > > As I said at the beginning: >> > >> > > > Symfony has become too complicated. Also, Symfony folder structure >> > > > has become too complicated. Definitely, the learning of principles >> > > > on >> > > > which Symfony working is painful and unprofitable. If you really >> > > > want >> > > > to >> > > > see, which means fast, easy and effective PHP framework, then take a >> > > > look on the following link: >> > >> > > >http://www.yiiframework.com/ >> > >> > > > WBR, >> > > > Ghost3D >> > >> > > > On Sep 21, 3:31 pm, Sid Bachtiar <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > >> XD >> > >> > > >> On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 1:28 AM, dziobacz >> > > >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > > >>> I would like to say that Symfony is very, very good and future >> > > >>> framework. Thx Symfony I could learn very fast ASP.NET MVC (not >> > > >>> ASP.NET but ASP.NET MVC) - these two frameworks have got many >> > > >>> similar >> > > >>> things. >> > > >>> While Zend Framework is far, far away Symfony and ASP.NET MVS. In >> > > >>> Zend >> > > >>> you must almost everything creat by yourself !! For example you >> > > >>> must >> > > >>> modify Bootstrap file and write there strange code to enable >> > > >>> layout !!! Symfony is the best !! :) >> > > >>> On 21 Wrz, 10:58, CaffeineInc <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > >>>> I think symfony is brilliant, If you need a framework which can >> > > >>>> scale >> > > >>>> to enterprise level websites with fast prototyping and a flexible >> > > >>>> ORM, >> > > >>>> then you don't need anything else. If you think it's complicated, >> > > >>>> then >> > > >>>> maybe you're in the wrong place. >> > > >>>> If you want to build a small website with everything >> > > >>>> pre-configured, >> > > >>>> I'd probably stick with something like SilverStripe. >> > > >>>> P.s slagging off the framework in 2-3 lines is not very >> > > >>>> constructive >> > > >>>> for the users forum. >> > > >>>> On Sep 18, 6:09 pm, bghost <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > >>>>> No, the crux of what I wanted to say is: >> > > >>>>> Users should not spend more time to learn how some Web Framework >> > > >>>>> works but they need to learn a programming language. Any >> > > >>>>> framework >> > > >>>>> should be only an auxiliary tool, not an entire small science. >> > > >>>>> So, simplicity and speed should be paramount. >> > > >>>>> WBR, >> > > >>>>> Ghost3D >> > > >>>>> On Sep 18, 5:30 pm, Sid Ferreira <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > >>>>>> The most easy thing to understand is something that doesn't >> > > >>>>>> need >> > > >>>>>> documentation and I believe that THIS is the point that BGhost >> > > >>>>>> is talking >> > > >>>>>> about."I don't want launch a rocket in 30 days, I want my >> > > >>>>>> gallery ready in >> > > >>>>>> 12 minutes..." >> > > >>>>>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 12:26, Thomas Rabaix >> > > >>>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >> > > >>>>>>> Symfony has many components, each of them are : >> > > >>>>>>> - easy to understand >> > > >>>>>>> - easy to configure >> > > >>>>>>> - very well documented >> > > >>>>>>> Now, the only thing complicated is to know how all these >> > > >>>>>>> components play >> > > >>>>>>> together. This is the tricky part, but symfony default >> > > >>>>>>> configuration will be >> > > >>>>>>> fine for many projects. >> > > >>>>>>> You just need to go further ... if you have already create/try >> > > >>>>>>> to implement >> > > >>>>>>> a framework, you will see that symfony has all STABLE the >> > > >>>>>>> pieces you need. >> > > >>>>>>> Try to use an IDE : netbeans or eclipse, these two IDE are >> > > >>>>>>> great to navigate >> > > >>>>>>> across the code and understand it. >> > > >>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 5:04 PM, bghost <[email protected]> >> > > >>>>>>> wrote: >> > > >>>>>>>> Hi Fabien, >> > > >>>>>>>> - With the introduction of the Doctrine ORM, number of >> > > >>>>>>>> parameters >> > > >>>>>>>> and configuration options are increased manifold. Therefore, >> > > >>>>>>>> the >> > > >>>>>>>> developer >> > > >>>>>>>> must first learn all about the Doctrine ORM. Is that good? >> > > >>>>>>>> Doctrine >> > > >>>>>>>> ORM >> > > >>>>>>>> already providing a fairly good possibilities and options >> > > >>>>>>>> without >> > > >>>>>>>> Symfony. >> > > >>>>>>>> - Symfony WEB forms are a bit too complicated and their >> > > >>>>>>>> relations >> > > >>>>>>>> with the rest of a Symfony application is often unclear. >> > > >>>>>>>> WBR, >> > > >>>>>>>> Ghost3D >> > > >>>>>>>> On Sep 18, 4:43 pm, Fabien Potencier >> > > >>>>>>>> <fabien.potenc...@symfony- >> > > >>>>>>>> project.com> wrote: >> > > >>>>>>>>> You say that symfony became too complicated, which implies >> > > >>>>>>>>> it was not >> > > >>>>>>>>> before. >> > > >>>>>>>>> Can you give us some examples of what became more >> > > >>>>>>>>> complicated? That will >> > > >>>>>>>>> help us improve the framework. >> > > >>>>>>>>> For instance, we have less and less configuration files. >> > > >>>>>>>>> Since 1.0, we >> > > >>>>>>>>> removed a lot of them, and removed some parameters also. >> > > >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >> > > >>>>>>>>> Fabien >> > > >>>>>>>>> -- >> > > >>>>>>>>> Fabien Potencier >> > > >>>>>>>>> Sensio CEO - symfony lead developer >> > > >>>>>>>>> sensiolabs.com | symfony-project.org | fabien.potencier.org >> > > >>>>>>>>> Tél: +33 1 40 99 80 80 >> > > >>>>>>>>> bghost wrote: >> > > >>>>>>>>>> First, I would like to say that Symfony framework is not >> > > >>>>>>>>>> too bad, >> > > >>>>>>>>>> because I follow its development from the first version. >> > > >>>>>>>>>> But I think >> > > >>>>>>>>>> it became too complicated because it is evident >> > > >>>>>>>>>> exaggeration >> > > >>>>>>>>>> with the introduction of countless parameters and >> > > >>>>>>>>>> configuration >> > > >>>>>>>>>> files in order to automate all possible tasks. This entails >> > > >>>>>>>>>> that the >> > > >>>>>>>>>> programmer spends more time dealing with the Symfony >> > > >>>>>>>>>> framework >> > > >>>>>>>>>> than with the real problem. >> > > >>>>>>>>>> P.S. I did nothing special but just followed the Jobeet >> > > >>>>>>>>>> tutorial. >> > > >>>>>>>>>> WBR, >> > > >>>>>>>>>> Ghost3D >> > > >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 18, 4:24 pm, Sid Bachtiar <[email protected]> >> > > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> It is necessary to invest so much effort to do a >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> relatively simple >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> application. >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> If you're just learning Symfony, then yes of course you'll >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> find it >> > > >>>>>>>> too >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> much effort. This is true with any other >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> framework/technology. >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> But for those of us who have invested our time in Symfony, >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> we find >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> great leverage in using Symfony. >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> So what is the relatively simple application you're trying >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> to build? >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 1:58 AM, bghost >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> It is necessary to invest so much effort to do a >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> relatively simple >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> application. >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Productivity and profitability of such work is very >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> questionable. >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> So, Symfony - Goodbye >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> -- >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Blue Horn Ltd - System Developmenthttp://bluehorn.co.nz >> > > >>>>>>> -- >> > > >>>>>>> Thomas Rabaix >> > > >>>>>>>http://rabaix.net >> > > >>>>>> -- >> > > >>>>>> Sidney G B Ferreira >> > > >>>>>> Desenvolvedor Web >> > > >> -- >> > > >> Blue Horn Ltd - System Developmenthttp://bluehorn.co.nz >> > > > > -- > As programmers create bigger & better idiot proof programs, so the universe > creates bigger & better idiots! > I am on web: http://www.alecslupu.ro/ > I am on twitter: http://twitter.com/alecslupu > I am on linkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/alecslupu > Tel: (+4)0748.543.798 > > > > > > > -- Blue Horn Ltd - System Development http://bluehorn.co.nz --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
