Yeah :) like plugins but one wouldn't have to spend the time making it into a plugin ... why not make that as a natural part of process while developing an app .. So modules r from the start build like plugins ... During the project the time spent on documentation is minimal so not every thing makes to the end doc ... N therefore when in a new project i have to use one of my modules written earlier, i have to spend the time to relearn atleast 30% of it ... mostly configurations etc ...
so given that modules are like plugins (maybe not entirely) reusing a module would be alot easier as well ... -- Kind regards Farrukh Abbas On 23 Sep 2009, at 22:30, Sid Bachtiar <[email protected]> wrote: > >> the schema model n peer classes in >> one folder so all one would need is to copy the folder n customize it > > You mean like, plugin? :) > > On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 1:51 AM, Farrukh Abbas > <[email protected]> wrote: >> It has become a long thread ... As some one said before that >> noframework is >> perfect... But I guess what matters is how well does a framework >> hide all >> the complexitites of creating scalable web apps n let's the >> developer focus >> on the solution n business logic suberbly ... Yes it does take time >> to learn >> how to do it the "right" way according to the rules the framework >> has put >> forth but if one sticks to one version I guess there won't be that >> much of >> learning ... Any how I would like to share my 50 cents of >> experience with >> symfony n what I would like it to have... >> I have developed 3 to 4 apps on symfony n one thing I find my self >> doing is >> use some module developed for on app into another which ofcourse is >> possible >> but what do u guys think about putting the schema model n peer >> classes in >> one folder so all one would need is to copy the folder n customize >> it ... >> It's just n idea... So would like to know the drawebacks n >> strenghts of >> doing so... For that to be possible the model has to be stand >> alone... Feel >> free to critizie constructively >> >> -- >> Kind regards >> Farrukh Abbas >> On 23 Sep 2009, at 15:37, Alexandru-Emil Lupu >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Ghost3D, >> Sincerely, i thought that symfony is hard as well in the begining, >> but, >> there are some things that i haven't saw in other php frameworks, >> like the >> admin generator or the crud. Maybe, just because in the last period >> i am >> using just Django and Symfony in my projects. >> If you think that the symfony does not follow the best practices, >> then you >> are free to share with us what are the problems that you found on >> the system >> (allready done that). Instead of criticize so much the framework >> itself, you >> might come with some improvements of the generated code that >> "follows the >> best practices". >> >> Yeah ... i know that sometimes the symfony generated does not do >> what i want >> to do, so i am starting to extend it. For example, on some objects >> i am >> hydrating manually the foreign objects, something like ROR way... >> $user = MyUser::find($criteria, array >> ('ban_status','profile','last_login')) >> and so on ... >> >> AFAIK, not even a framework is able to read the developer's mind. >> Some of >> them have made compromises renouncing to complexity for the >> simplicity sake, >> other are maybe far too complex than they should. >> >> i propose you something... make a blog application (no plugins >> allowed) >> using symfony, yii, code igniter, cake PHP and tell us what were >> your work >> time for each one of the implementation. The applications should >> have: i18n >> support, form validation, comment management, and also an admin >> interface >> for the posts, a tagging system, and tests. >> After that add 2 majour database modifications and see what is the >> framework >> that helps you the most in this case. >> >> Of course. The logic is not to learn all the framewors, but to see >> the >> development time for each one of it. Afterall we all work with tight >> deadlines for our customers. >> As someone said earlier: if you need to modify 90% of the generated >> code, >> either you don't do it right, either symfony is not for you. >> >> Alecs >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 3:55 PM, Phil Moorhouse >> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Ghost3D, >>> >>> Firstly, the reason for the move to OO forms has already been >>> covered >>> - it's to promote re-use and greater flexibility. This unavoidably >>> comes with the cost of increased complexity, and I think from the >>> answers above most people here are willing to make that trade-off. >>> >>> Secondly, Symfony is not meant to be an application generator in the >>> way that Drupal or Joomla will build most of your app for you. >>> It's a >>> foundation and structure for you to build your app on top of. The >>> admin generator can quickly give you a simple back-end and in some >>> cases people have bent and shaped it to make entire sites, but there >>> is no explicit claim that you can wave a magic wand and Symfony will >>> write your entire codebase. If you want that then Symfony is not for >>> you. >>> >>> Thirdly, the directory structure is not complex - it follows a >>> convention that is well named and repeated throughout the framework, >>> which makes naming decisions and finding old code easy. The empty >>> classes are there so that you can extend the base classes without >>> changing them, which means you can update your Symfony version or >>> rebuild your model without fear of overwriting your own custom code. >>> The CRUD is a quickly producible (and completely optional) starting >>> point for you to modify, and that's all it's meant to be. The >>> configuration has well chosen defaults from the start - the only >>> thing >>> you need to provide to get an app up and running are your database >>> connection details, so it's hardly "painstaking". >>> >>> You seem to be of the impression all frameworks should fulfil the >>> same >>> needs and take the same approach. If you have a preferred approach, >>> then use a framework that implements it, there is no point in >>> arguing >>> that Symfony does things the wrong way. >>> >>> Phil >>> >>> lazymanc on #symfony / #symfony-off >>> >>> >>> On Sep 23, 12:29 pm, bghost <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> Hi Fabien, >>>> >>>> You say that I write nonsense and stupid e-mails? Well, seems that >>>> you did not understand me. So, I'll be here a little more >>>> detailed and >>>> specific: >>>> >>>> First: >>>> >>>> No offense Fabien, this is a well-meaning criticism. I know that >>>> you >>>> invested so much effort into Symfony. However, you are a little >>>> exaggerated forcing object model and object-oriented programming >>>> where it is necessary - and where it is not (as is the case with >>>> WEB >>>> Forms), in the language which already has a very bad and sloppy >>>> object model. So you complicate some tasks in the Symfony >>>> framework that already was simple and good. >>>> >>>> Second: >>>> >>>> Almost 90% of the code that generates the Symfony framework >>>> developer need to modify or re-write, because the generated >>>> code "does not follow best practice" (per your words) in >>>> programming. >>>> What is the point and what the benefits of the code generated if >>>> 90% >>>> of the code must be re-written on the completely different way? >>>> >>>> Third: >>>> >>>> The result of all this is a complex directory structure, many empty >>>> classes that only contain a skeleton and just inherits one of the >>>> base >>>> classes, and finally the CRUD code that always must be re-written. >>>> And to get all that, the programmer must learn a bunch of different >>>> configuration and command line options. >>>> And when a programmer, after a painstaking setup and configuration >>>> of various options and parameters, finally gets the generated code, >>>> he must re-write 90% of the generated code. >>>> >>>> WBR, >>>> Ghost3D >>>> >>>> On Sep 23, 9:19 am, Fabien Potencier <fabien.potenc...@symfony- >>>> >>>> project.com> wrote: >>>>> Ok, I think we get the point. No need to be rude. Please, go >>>>> away, use >>>>> whatever framework you want, and stop writing nonsense emails. >>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Fabien >>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Fabien Potencier >>>>> Sensio CEO - symfony lead developer >>>>> sensiolabs.com | symfony-project.org | fabien.potencier.org >>>>> Tél: +33 1 40 99 80 80 >>>> >>>>> bghost wrote: >>>>>> As I said at the beginning: >>>> >>>>>> Symfony has become too complicated. Also, Symfony folder >>>>>> structure >>>>>> has become too complicated. Definitely, the learning of >>>>>> principles >>>>>> on >>>>>> which Symfony working is painful and unprofitable. If you really >>>>>> want >>>>>> to >>>>>> see, which means fast, easy and effective PHP framework, then >>>>>> take a >>>>>> look on the following link: >>>> >>>>>> http://www.yiiframework.com/ >>>> >>>>>> WBR, >>>>>> Ghost3D >>>> >>>>>> On Sep 21, 3:31 pm, Sid Bachtiar <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> XD >>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 1:28 AM, dziobacz >>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>> I would like to say that Symfony is very, very good and future >>>>>>>> framework. Thx Symfony I could learn very fast ASP.NET MVC (not >>>>>>>> ASP.NET but ASP.NET MVC) - these two frameworks have got many >>>>>>>> similar >>>>>>>> things. >>>>>>>> While Zend Framework is far, far away Symfony and ASP.NET >>>>>>>> MVS. In >>>>>>>> Zend >>>>>>>> you must almost everything creat by yourself !! For example you >>>>>>>> must >>>>>>>> modify Bootstrap file and write there strange code to enable >>>>>>>> layout !!! Symfony is the best !! :) >>>>>>>> On 21 Wrz, 10:58, CaffeineInc <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> I think symfony is brilliant, If you need a framework which >>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>> scale >>>>>>>>> to enterprise level websites with fast prototyping and a >>>>>>>>> flexible >>>>>>>>> ORM, >>>>>>>>> then you don't need anything else. If you think it's >>>>>>>>> complicated, >>>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>>> maybe you're in the wrong place. >>>>>>>>> If you want to build a small website with everything >>>>>>>>> pre-configured, >>>>>>>>> I'd probably stick with something like SilverStripe. >>>>>>>>> P.s slagging off the framework in 2-3 lines is not very >>>>>>>>> constructive >>>>>>>>> for the users forum. >>>>>>>>> On Sep 18, 6:09 pm, bghost <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> No, the crux of what I wanted to say is: >>>>>>>>>> Users should not spend more time to learn how some Web >>>>>>>>>> Framework >>>>>>>>>> works but they need to learn a programming language. Any >>>>>>>>>> framework >>>>>>>>>> should be only an auxiliary tool, not an entire small >>>>>>>>>> science. >>>>>>>>>> So, simplicity and speed should be paramount. >>>>>>>>>> WBR, >>>>>>>>>> Ghost3D >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 18, 5:30 pm, Sid Ferreira <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> The most easy thing to understand is something that doesn't >>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>> documentation and I believe that THIS is the point that >>>>>>>>>>> BGhost >>>>>>>>>>> is talking >>>>>>>>>>> about."I don't want launch a rocket in 30 days, I want my >>>>>>>>>>> gallery ready in >>>>>>>>>>> 12 minutes..." >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 12:26, Thomas Rabaix >>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Symfony has many components, each of them are : >>>>>>>>>>>> - easy to understand >>>>>>>>>>>> - easy to configure >>>>>>>>>>>> - very well documented >>>>>>>>>>>> Now, the only thing complicated is to know how all these >>>>>>>>>>>> components play >>>>>>>>>>>> together. This is the tricky part, but symfony default >>>>>>>>>>>> configuration will be >>>>>>>>>>>> fine for many projects. >>>>>>>>>>>> You just need to go further ... if you have already >>>>>>>>>>>> create/try >>>>>>>>>>>> to implement >>>>>>>>>>>> a framework, you will see that symfony has all STABLE the >>>>>>>>>>>> pieces you need. >>>>>>>>>>>> Try to use an IDE : netbeans or eclipse, these two IDE are >>>>>>>>>>>> great to navigate >>>>>>>>>>>> across the code and understand it. >>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 5:04 PM, bghost >>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Fabien, >>>>>>>>>>>>> - With the introduction of the Doctrine ORM, number of >>>>>>>>>>>>> parameters >>>>>>>>>>>>> and configuration options are increased manifold. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Therefore, >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> developer >>>>>>>>>>>>> must first learn all about the Doctrine ORM. Is that >>>>>>>>>>>>> good? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Doctrine >>>>>>>>>>>>> ORM >>>>>>>>>>>>> already providing a fairly good possibilities and options >>>>>>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>>> Symfony. >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Symfony WEB forms are a bit too complicated and their >>>>>>>>>>>>> relations >>>>>>>>>>>>> with the rest of a Symfony application is often unclear. >>>>>>>>>>>>> WBR, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ghost3D >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 18, 4:43 pm, Fabien Potencier >>>>>>>>>>>>> <fabien.potenc...@symfony- >>>>>>>>>>>>> project.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You say that symfony became too complicated, which >>>>>>>>>>>>>> implies >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it was not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> before. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can you give us some examples of what became more >>>>>>>>>>>>>> complicated? That will >>>>>>>>>>>>>> help us improve the framework. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> For instance, we have less and less configuration files. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since 1.0, we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> removed a lot of them, and removed some parameters also. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fabien >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fabien Potencier >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sensio CEO - symfony lead developer >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sensiolabs.com | symfony-project.org | fabien.potencier.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tél: +33 1 40 99 80 80 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> bghost wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, I would like to say that Symfony framework is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> too bad, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I follow its development from the first version. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But I think >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it became too complicated because it is evident >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exaggeration >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the introduction of countless parameters and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> configuration >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> files in order to automate all possible tasks. This >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> programmer spends more time dealing with the Symfony >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than with the real problem. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> P.S. I did nothing special but just followed the Jobeet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tutorial. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WBR, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ghost3D >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 18, 4:24 pm, Sid Bachtiar >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is necessary to invest so much effort to do a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> relatively simple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> application. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you're just learning Symfony, then yes of course >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you'll >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find it >>>>>>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much effort. This is true with any other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework/technology. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But for those of us who have invested our time in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Symfony, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we find >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> great leverage in using Symfony. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So what is the relatively simple application you're >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trying >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to build? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 1:58 AM, bghost >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is necessary to invest so much effort to do a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> relatively simple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> application. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Productivity and profitability of such work is very >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> questionable. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, Symfony - Goodbye >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blue Horn Ltd - System Developmenthttp://bluehorn.co.nz >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> Thomas Rabaix >>>>>>>>>>>> http://rabaix.net >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Sidney G B Ferreira >>>>>>>>>>> Desenvolvedor Web >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Blue Horn Ltd - System Developmenthttp://bluehorn.co.nz >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> As programmers create bigger & better idiot proof programs, so the >> universe >> creates bigger & better idiots! >> I am on web: http://www.alecslupu.ro/ >> I am on twitter: http://twitter.com/alecslupu >> I am on linkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/alecslupu >> Tel: (+4)0748.543.798 >> >> >> >> >>> >> > > > > -- > Blue Horn Ltd - System Development > http://bluehorn.co.nz > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. 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