Ghost3D,
Sincerely, i thought that symfony is hard as well in the begining, but,
there are some things that i haven't saw in other php frameworks, like the
admin generator or the crud. Maybe, just because in the last period i am
using just Django and Symfony in my projects.
If you think that the symfony does not follow the best practices, then you
are free to share with us what are the problems that you found on the system
(allready done that). Instead of criticize so much the framework itself, you
might come with some improvements of the generated code that "follows the
best practices".
Yeah ... i know that sometimes the symfony generated does not do what i want
to do, so i am starting to extend it. For example, on some objects i am
hydrating manually the foreign objects, something like ROR way...
$user = MyUser::find($criteria, array('ban_status','profile','last_login'))
and so on ...
AFAIK, not even a framework is able to read the developer's mind. Some of
them have made compromises renouncing to complexity for the simplicity sake,
other are maybe far too complex than they should.
i propose you something... make a blog application (no plugins allowed)
using symfony, yii, code igniter, cake PHP and tell us what were your work
time for each one of the implementation. The applications should have: i18n
support, form validation, comment management, and also an admin interface
for the posts, a tagging system, and tests.
After that add 2 majour database modifications and see what is the framework
that helps you the most in this case.
Of course. The logic is not to learn all the framewors, but to see the
development time for each one of it. Afterall we all work with tight
deadlines for our customers.
As someone said earlier: if you need to modify 90% of the generated code,
either you don't do it right, either symfony is not for you.
Alecs
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 3:55 PM, Phil Moorhouse <
[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> Ghost3D,
>
> Firstly, the reason for the move to OO forms has already been covered
> - it's to promote re-use and greater flexibility. This unavoidably
> comes with the cost of increased complexity, and I think from the
> answers above most people here are willing to make that trade-off.
>
> Secondly, Symfony is not meant to be an application generator in the
> way that Drupal or Joomla will build most of your app for you. It's a
> foundation and structure for you to build your app on top of. The
> admin generator can quickly give you a simple back-end and in some
> cases people have bent and shaped it to make entire sites, but there
> is no explicit claim that you can wave a magic wand and Symfony will
> write your entire codebase. If you want that then Symfony is not for
> you.
>
> Thirdly, the directory structure is not complex - it follows a
> convention that is well named and repeated throughout the framework,
> which makes naming decisions and finding old code easy. The empty
> classes are there so that you can extend the base classes without
> changing them, which means you can update your Symfony version or
> rebuild your model without fear of overwriting your own custom code.
> The CRUD is a quickly producible (and completely optional) starting
> point for you to modify, and that's all it's meant to be. The
> configuration has well chosen defaults from the start - the only thing
> you need to provide to get an app up and running are your database
> connection details, so it's hardly "painstaking".
>
> You seem to be of the impression all frameworks should fulfil the same
> needs and take the same approach. If you have a preferred approach,
> then use a framework that implements it, there is no point in arguing
> that Symfony does things the wrong way.
>
> Phil
>
> lazymanc on #symfony / #symfony-off
>
>
> On Sep 23, 12:29 pm, bghost <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hi Fabien,
> >
> > You say that I write nonsense and stupid e-mails? Well, seems that
> > you did not understand me. So, I'll be here a little more detailed and
> > specific:
> >
> > First:
> >
> > No offense Fabien, this is a well-meaning criticism. I know that you
> > invested so much effort into Symfony. However, you are a little
> > exaggerated forcing object model and object-oriented programming
> > where it is necessary - and where it is not (as is the case with WEB
> > Forms), in the language which already has a very bad and sloppy
> > object model. So you complicate some tasks in the Symfony
> > framework that already was simple and good.
> >
> > Second:
> >
> > Almost 90% of the code that generates the Symfony framework
> > developer need to modify or re-write, because the generated
> > code "does not follow best practice" (per your words) in programming.
> > What is the point and what the benefits of the code generated if 90%
> > of the code must be re-written on the completely different way?
> >
> > Third:
> >
> > The result of all this is a complex directory structure, many empty
> > classes that only contain a skeleton and just inherits one of the base
> > classes, and finally the CRUD code that always must be re-written.
> > And to get all that, the programmer must learn a bunch of different
> > configuration and command line options.
> > And when a programmer, after a painstaking setup and configuration
> > of various options and parameters, finally gets the generated code,
> > he must re-write 90% of the generated code.
> >
> > WBR,
> > Ghost3D
> >
> > On Sep 23, 9:19 am, Fabien Potencier <fabien.potenc...@symfony-
> >
> > project.com> wrote:
> > > Ok, I think we get the point. No need to be rude. Please, go away, use
> > > whatever framework you want, and stop writing nonsense emails.
> >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Fabien
> >
> > > --
> > > Fabien Potencier
> > > Sensio CEO - symfony lead developer
> > > sensiolabs.com | symfony-project.org | fabien.potencier.org
> > > Tél: +33 1 40 99 80 80
> >
> > > bghost wrote:
> > > > As I said at the beginning:
> >
> > > > Symfony has become too complicated. Also, Symfony folder structure
> > > > has become too complicated. Definitely, the learning of principles on
> > > > which Symfony working is painful and unprofitable. If you really want
> > > > to
> > > > see, which means fast, easy and effective PHP framework, then take a
> > > > look on the following link:
> >
> > > >http://www.yiiframework.com/
> >
> > > > WBR,
> > > > Ghost3D
> >
> > > > On Sep 21, 3:31 pm, Sid Bachtiar <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >> XD
> >
> > > >> On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 1:28 AM, dziobacz <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > >>> I would like to say that Symfony is very, very good and future
> > > >>> framework. Thx Symfony I could learn very fast ASP.NET MVC (not
> > > >>> ASP.NET but ASP.NET MVC) - these two frameworks have got many
> similar
> > > >>> things.
> > > >>> While Zend Framework is far, far away Symfony and ASP.NET MVS. In
> Zend
> > > >>> you must almost everything creat by yourself !! For example you
> must
> > > >>> modify Bootstrap file and write there strange code to enable
> > > >>> layout !!! Symfony is the best !! :)
> > > >>> On 21 Wrz, 10:58, CaffeineInc <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >>>> I think symfony is brilliant, If you need a framework which can
> scale
> > > >>>> to enterprise level websites with fast prototyping and a flexible
> ORM,
> > > >>>> then you don't need anything else. If you think it's complicated,
> then
> > > >>>> maybe you're in the wrong place.
> > > >>>> If you want to build a small website with everything
> pre-configured,
> > > >>>> I'd probably stick with something like SilverStripe.
> > > >>>> P.s slagging off the framework in 2-3 lines is not very
> constructive
> > > >>>> for the users forum.
> > > >>>> On Sep 18, 6:09 pm, bghost <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >>>>> No, the crux of what I wanted to say is:
> > > >>>>> Users should not spend more time to learn how some Web Framework
> > > >>>>> works but they need to learn a programming language. Any
> framework
> > > >>>>> should be only an auxiliary tool, not an entire small science.
> > > >>>>> So, simplicity and speed should be paramount.
> > > >>>>> WBR,
> > > >>>>> Ghost3D
> > > >>>>> On Sep 18, 5:30 pm, Sid Ferreira <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >>>>>> The most easy thing to understand is something that doesn't need
> > > >>>>>> documentation and I believe that THIS is the point that BGhost
> is talking
> > > >>>>>> about."I don't want launch a rocket in 30 days, I want my
> gallery ready in
> > > >>>>>> 12 minutes..."
> > > >>>>>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 12:26, Thomas Rabaix <
> [email protected]>wrote:
> > > >>>>>>> Symfony has many components, each of them are :
> > > >>>>>>> - easy to understand
> > > >>>>>>> - easy to configure
> > > >>>>>>> - very well documented
> > > >>>>>>> Now, the only thing complicated is to know how all these
> components play
> > > >>>>>>> together. This is the tricky part, but symfony default
> configuration will be
> > > >>>>>>> fine for many projects.
> > > >>>>>>> You just need to go further ... if you have already create/try
> to implement
> > > >>>>>>> a framework, you will see that symfony has all STABLE the
> pieces you need.
> > > >>>>>>> Try to use an IDE : netbeans or eclipse, these two IDE are
> great to navigate
> > > >>>>>>> across the code and understand it.
> > > >>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 5:04 PM, bghost <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>> Hi Fabien,
> > > >>>>>>>> - With the introduction of the Doctrine ORM, number of
> parameters
> > > >>>>>>>> and configuration options are increased manifold. Therefore,
> the
> > > >>>>>>>> developer
> > > >>>>>>>> must first learn all about the Doctrine ORM. Is that good?
> Doctrine
> > > >>>>>>>> ORM
> > > >>>>>>>> already providing a fairly good possibilities and options
> without
> > > >>>>>>>> Symfony.
> > > >>>>>>>> - Symfony WEB forms are a bit too complicated and their
> relations
> > > >>>>>>>> with the rest of a Symfony application is often unclear.
> > > >>>>>>>> WBR,
> > > >>>>>>>> Ghost3D
> > > >>>>>>>> On Sep 18, 4:43 pm, Fabien Potencier
> <fabien.potenc...@symfony-
> > > >>>>>>>> project.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>> You say that symfony became too complicated, which implies it
> was not
> > > >>>>>>>>> before.
> > > >>>>>>>>> Can you give us some examples of what became more
> complicated? That will
> > > >>>>>>>>> help us improve the framework.
> > > >>>>>>>>> For instance, we have less and less configuration files.
> Since 1.0, we
> > > >>>>>>>>> removed a lot of them, and removed some parameters also.
> > > >>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> > > >>>>>>>>> Fabien
> > > >>>>>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>>>> Fabien Potencier
> > > >>>>>>>>> Sensio CEO - symfony lead developer
> > > >>>>>>>>> sensiolabs.com | symfony-project.org | fabien.potencier.org
> > > >>>>>>>>> Tél: +33 1 40 99 80 80
> > > >>>>>>>>> bghost wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>> First, I would like to say that Symfony framework is not too
> bad,
> > > >>>>>>>>>> because I follow its development from the first version. But
> I think
> > > >>>>>>>>>> it became too complicated because it is evident exaggeration
> > > >>>>>>>>>> with the introduction of countless parameters and
> configuration
> > > >>>>>>>>>> files in order to automate all possible tasks. This entails
> that the
> > > >>>>>>>>>> programmer spends more time dealing with the Symfony
> framework
> > > >>>>>>>>>> than with the real problem.
> > > >>>>>>>>>> P.S. I did nothing special but just followed the Jobeet
> tutorial.
> > > >>>>>>>>>> WBR,
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Ghost3D
> > > >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 18, 4:24 pm, Sid Bachtiar <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> It is necessary to invest so much effort to do a
> relatively simple
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> application.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> If you're just learning Symfony, then yes of course you'll
> find it
> > > >>>>>>>> too
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> much effort. This is true with any other
> framework/technology.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> But for those of us who have invested our time in Symfony,
> we find
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> great leverage in using Symfony.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> So what is the relatively simple application you're trying
> to build?
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 1:58 AM, bghost <
> [email protected]> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> It is necessary to invest so much effort to do a
> relatively simple
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> application.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Productivity and profitability of such work is very
> questionable.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> So, Symfony - Goodbye
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Blue Horn Ltd - System Developmenthttp://bluehorn.co.nz
> > > >>>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>> Thomas Rabaix
> > > >>>>>>>http://rabaix.net
> > > >>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>> Sidney G B Ferreira
> > > >>>>>> Desenvolvedor Web
> > > >> --
> > > >> Blue Horn Ltd - System Developmenthttp://bluehorn.co.nz
> >
>
--
As programmers create bigger & better idiot proof programs, so the universe
creates bigger & better idiots!
I am on web: http://www.alecslupu.ro/
I am on twitter: http://twitter.com/alecslupu
I am on linkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/alecslupu
Tel: (+4)0748.543.798
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