2013/7/19 Frederik Ramm <[email protected]> > On 07/19/2013 03:33 AM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: >> >> We've managed to handle creating definitions that we could use >> worldwide for pretty much everything else, including roads, sports, >> other schools, various amenities, etc. >> > > Have we really? > > In Italy (and Martin will correct me if I'm wrong), a "bar" will typically > open in the morning and you can have breakfast there. Has that lead to OSM > using "amenity=cafe" for these businesses because in other countries a > "bar" tends to be mainly for evening drinks, or are we using "amenity=bar" > in Italy and counting on the map user to know that this is something > different in different places? >
Actually you are touching a "sore" point, this is one of the very few specialties in Italian tagging, and there is indeed no real consensus how to tag these. Thing is that an Italian "bar" is yes, supposed to be open in the morning, but it will normally also be open for lunch (usually simple meals, mostly self service, but after breakfast you would not go there for sweet food but for sandwiches and maybe pasta and similar) and some of them will also be open until late at night (and people will drink mostly alcoholic stuff then). And there are also businesses that qualify perfectly for amenity=cafe (they call themselves "sala da thé" and are exactly what in Germany or Austria is a "cafe"). Some Italian users insist on using amenity=cafe for all kind of "Italian bars" but that also doesn't catch it in many cases (because many don't have seats but only a bar/counter, have self service). The solution for us is that some are amenity=bar and others are amenity=cafe (the bigger ones, when there are tables and service). I think to some extend it is normal that there are local differences, take a petrol station for instance, in Germany you would not only go there by car but mayn people also walk there or go by bike to get tobacco, beer or fresh milk at times where other shops have to be closed, as they have often become real convenience stores, while in Italy you could never get tobacco or beer at a petrol station. There are a few other differences in tagging as well, e.g. we use to have 2 main types of pizza places in Italy (the take away ones, selling sliced pizza, and the restaurant ones, where you can only buy whole pizzas and will have seating and table service), we use amenity=fast_food for the first and amenity=restaurant for the latter, or ice_cream, in Germany they get mostly (?) tagged as amenity=cafe, cuisine=ice_cream, but in Italy most ice_cream shops are take away places more similar to what in Germany is a "Konditorei" (~"sweets bakery") and ice cream makers legally belong to the ~"sweet makers craft" (sorry for this transcription, I hope you get it). In general there is a strong wish in the Italian community to use globally unified tags, but when there are particular regional differences we try to take them into account. Another object that comes to my mind is amenity=pub. You will usually get something to eat in a pub in the UK, but you won't in many German "amenity=pub" (indeed it might have been a good idea to invent something dedicated for the German "Kneipe", but osm history put it that way). > Personally I don't think that it would be terribly bad if > amenity=kindergarten would mean something else in the US than in Germany, > for example. > (I *would* find it strange though if anything from elementary school > upwards would be classed as "childcare" > +1 cheers, Martin
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