Yes, "we" refers to the Hungarian mapping community who we discussed this topic with a few times in the past, although we're still waiting for others from the neighboring area to also chime in.
We'd be more than happy if we could have input from as many cultures as possible. In Hungary, coffeehouses (and cafés) generally do not make _any_ of their desserts, while a cukrászda makes _almost_ all of them (if not all). Hot meals are also not expected in a cukrászda, while some fraction of cafes around here do offer a time limited daily lunch:menu=* (they usually order such meals from external kitchens), though as mentioned it would be plausible for a bigger coffeehouse to have a kitchen where they could cook something simple like an omelette. However, I would be surprised if coffeehouses were common in the UK which do not serve any coffee. The mapnik icon of a café is a coffee cup. The primary motivation of us wanting to go to a café is to have some coffee, tea, a soft drink and perhaps something to go with that. The icon of a cukrászda could be some kind of dessert (unfortunately the piece of cake is taken by shop=pastry). The primary motivation of going to a cukrászda is to have some nice desserts, and perhaps some liquid to go with that - so that's just the corollary. The use case is clearly different, and the two can rarely be substituted for one another. For example, if you plan to go out on a date in a cukrászda, but it suddenly closes the day before, you won't reschedule the event to a café - you will reschedule to another cukrászda. If you planned a date to a Korean restaurant and you have to reschedule it similarly, the Mongolian restaurant would be a fulfilling substitute for most people. As highlighted in our notes, people usually don't go to a cukrászda because they are hungry - they usually have something to eat at a restaurant or at home beforehand. Placing custom orders is only an option - a defining feature of a cukrászda is that they keep a buffer of some of the most popular desserts inside a chilled see-through counter that you can choose from based on visuals (also a unique feature - this is rare in a café). Of course some of the desserts can only be prepared afresh, so one can sit down with some salty appetizers until it is ready. In Hungary, we don't quite have other kinds of "pastry shops" as an alternative, so it's really not a "30-minute side trip". craft=patisserie doesn't seem to be an established tag. Also this is not something like a beekeeper where we can ring the doorbell anytime to get some honey. Due to health regulations, a "cukrász" (~something like pastry cook) is not allowed to make desserts at home - she must operate a kitchen for this purpose. Then for the same reason, no customers or guests are allowed in the kitchen, there must be a place where they can be served (at a cukrászda in person or perhaps by delivery). We did consider possibilities for mapping the kitchen as well (maybe with the tag similar to what you suggest, or the more established and related craft=confectionery), but I personally don't find that of priority for the average map user, we'll see later on. This itself is a major difference compared to a bakery, because baking simple flour based breads and simple baker's confections doesn't command the same number of permits or expertise (and they usually don't need a chilled counter either). It is understandable that there will always be corner cases and that mapping is not 100% science, but this doesn't mean we couldn't even try to get things right. People may or may not be looking for cafes that much, because they are pretty common, but a cukrászda is a much more rare and valuable POI compared to that. Indeed most single cukrászda does not feature every kind of dessert that I've listed, but they usually feature many items from multiple categories, (usually many times the number of possibilities compared to a café that purchases only the most popular few kinds of desserts from a cukrászda for offer) and if we only listed the most representative upper level categories individually, it would still leave lots of room for mapper error. Overall, adding cuisine=* (5-10 items listed, some non-pastry) + shop=pastry + artisan=yes may be a kludgy workaround for a cukrászat/cukrászda where you can't sit in, but this reasoning would make shop=confectionery redundant as well. But we still need a solution for the sit-in kind which is clearly an amenity. So we'll be thinking about some mapping options and will also discuss it later on. _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging