Tony,
In regards to item 10, the photo that I have referenced is from the intersection of Granite and Abrahams tracks, which is un marked(no sign), only wheel ruts/indents in the grass to indicate the intersection.
If I understood correctly, the access requirements you have described for Ant Track, are better suited to an access=no tag, vs the individual tagging of uses currently applied. (This is in line with the signs on the entry to the park and the description of a formed track from your email below.)
That is my 2 cents, not fussed either way, just prefered it to be clear what the access/use requirements are.
Stephen.
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2015 at 2:52 PM
From: fors...@ozonline.com.au
To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Unauthorised bike trails in national parks
From: fors...@ozonline.com.au
To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Unauthorised bike trails in national parks
Hi all
Thanks for the delay while I contacted Parks Vic. Parks Vic have
confirmed that Ant Trail is closed to the public for all uses as is
the trail at https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/-37.93253/145.30901
stev391 proposed that my edit should be reverted as he says:
(1) The track is there and more well defined than other features in the area.
(2) OSM is a map of what is in the world, not what copyrighted maps
have stated.
(3) This is a commonly used mountain bike track, with a recognised name.
(4) bicycle=no requires this to be indicated in the real world.
Here are my answers to these and other issues raised:
(1)
"The track is there and more well defined than other features in the area."
Ant trail is 20cm wide and consists of bare earth where bicycle
traffic has killed the vegetation. It is not signposted. Conversely
all the designated trails are signposted.
The photo that stev391 posted in support is of the intersection of Ant
Trail and Abrahams Track. Abrahams track is vehicle width and is
formed, that is it was created by earthmoving equipment. Ant Trail is
neither signed nor formed (no earthworks). See later in this post for
more photos of this intersection. There are no designated trails that
are less well defined than Ant Trail.
(2)
"OSM is a map of what is in the world, not what copyrighted maps have stated."
There is a lot of information that Ant Trail is closed to cyclists
without needing to refer to copyright maps. There are signs at all the
main entry points stating that only formed and designated trails can
be used and that the use of informal trails is not permitted. All the
designated trails are signposted. Ant Trail is not formed, signed or
designated.
(3)
"This is a commonly used mountain bike track"
Is it suggested that common use rather than legal status should
determine the access tag? There is no credible dispute to the fact
that Parks Vic has the authority to close tracks and impose penalties.
This is not like Cyprus, Kosovo or Crimea where the legal authority is
disputed. We have unambiguous on ground evidence that all informal
trails have no legal access.
(4)
"bicycle=no requires this to be indicated in the real world."
Signs at all main entry points to the park specify that trails should
be designated and formed and that informal trails should not be used.
All the designated tracks are signed. Ant Trail is not formed,
designated or signed, it is informal. This is real world indication.
(5)
"If you are not allowed to ride there is a 'no bikes' symbol"
Yes it does say this. It is obvious that this is badly worded. It is
obviously impractical to signpost every informal trail, shortcut and
animal track. The no bikes signs are only used on signed and
designated walking tracks. Is it suggested that its OK to use informal
bush trails up to the point that Parks notices them and puts up a sign?
(6)
When in doubt, also consider the "on the ground rule"
There is no doubt in this case. Parks Vic is the undisputed
responsible authority, this is not disputed territory like Cyprus,
Kosovo or Crimea. Parks Vic has declared Ant Trail and other informal
trails closed. There is ample evidence on the ground of this.
(7)
"The only 'formed management trail' is the Dargon Track ..."
Formed means earthworks, eg by a grader, spade or bulldozer but not
necessarily graveled. Dargon, Abrahams, Sunset, Lanes tracks all fit
this definition. Ant Trail is a worn trail not a formed trail.
(8)
"Both maps on the parks site are out of date and do not show all the
signed tracks, let alone the unsigned tracks..."
Yes the website pdf is dated 2007 and does not show The Aneurism which
is a signed and designated bike track. Any unsigned tracks should not
be used. The Aneurism is shown on the maps at the Horswood Rd and
Hallam North Rd carparks, these signs are a few weeks old.
(9)
"what regulation governs the restriction to ride a bike on an existing trails"
It is the National Parks Act. It is an offence to use a vehicle in an
area not set aside for vehicles. A Bike is included in the definition
of vehicle in the National Park Regulations 2013
(10)
"there is no sign at this intersection of the fire trails"
I can't view the photo at this link. Where is it? All the
intersections I checked were signposted.
I propose that Stev391's proposed reversion be disallowed.
Thanks Stev391 and everybody who has contributed to the discussion
Tony
Some more photos:
Signage Churchill entrance
https://app.box.com/s/zviqm3j8557nkam003i4ygmfbhqvocd2
https://app.box.com/s/oc7j9ibot7d8v0f8arag53umylo3h9hk
https://app.box.com/s/qvvedurt528k2e7dhygyn2p92sgu6qbz
Signage Ryans Rd entrance
https://app.box.com/s/uh8drkhfkl6nktpq8x92nywnvvcesg1q
The next few photos show the difference between the informal, unsigned
and unformed Ant Trail and the formed, signed tracks:
Designated walking track, (no bikes sign partially obscured by bush)
https://app.box.com/s/rcu8tueulkdmo6axl7olxh4dbt0gn6wf
Lanes Track cnr Ballart Tk
https://app.box.com/s/7uuc944wr7en7mite6r92nrm3id3zeil
Cnr Lanes and Abrahams track
https://app.box.com/s/j9d7p8p0e38r1qzcdezqlf7lok3hjzoj
https://app.box.com/s/gwq2kffqjtewyr93kia5d9rypy0l0wow
Cnr Abrahams and start Ant Trail
https://app.box.com/s/6j2s0i5rjpz3j76p79fd9q4x0phxnl8k
cnr Abrahams and Sunset
https://app.box.com/s/zvq3of1o2fjrvivjroxq8jg5szmqrqsm
Ant Tr (ahead) crossing Abrahams (L-R)
https://app.box.com/s/zk9firj26p2prqz4nifa4km3l8wr7x6w
Looking up Abrahams from Ant Tr crossing
https://app.box.com/s/wdib3k9s5jam1t07l59897z3lt514qbb
_______________________________________________
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Thanks for the delay while I contacted Parks Vic. Parks Vic have
confirmed that Ant Trail is closed to the public for all uses as is
the trail at https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/-37.93253/145.30901
stev391 proposed that my edit should be reverted as he says:
(1) The track is there and more well defined than other features in the area.
(2) OSM is a map of what is in the world, not what copyrighted maps
have stated.
(3) This is a commonly used mountain bike track, with a recognised name.
(4) bicycle=no requires this to be indicated in the real world.
Here are my answers to these and other issues raised:
(1)
"The track is there and more well defined than other features in the area."
Ant trail is 20cm wide and consists of bare earth where bicycle
traffic has killed the vegetation. It is not signposted. Conversely
all the designated trails are signposted.
The photo that stev391 posted in support is of the intersection of Ant
Trail and Abrahams Track. Abrahams track is vehicle width and is
formed, that is it was created by earthmoving equipment. Ant Trail is
neither signed nor formed (no earthworks). See later in this post for
more photos of this intersection. There are no designated trails that
are less well defined than Ant Trail.
(2)
"OSM is a map of what is in the world, not what copyrighted maps have stated."
There is a lot of information that Ant Trail is closed to cyclists
without needing to refer to copyright maps. There are signs at all the
main entry points stating that only formed and designated trails can
be used and that the use of informal trails is not permitted. All the
designated trails are signposted. Ant Trail is not formed, signed or
designated.
(3)
"This is a commonly used mountain bike track"
Is it suggested that common use rather than legal status should
determine the access tag? There is no credible dispute to the fact
that Parks Vic has the authority to close tracks and impose penalties.
This is not like Cyprus, Kosovo or Crimea where the legal authority is
disputed. We have unambiguous on ground evidence that all informal
trails have no legal access.
(4)
"bicycle=no requires this to be indicated in the real world."
Signs at all main entry points to the park specify that trails should
be designated and formed and that informal trails should not be used.
All the designated tracks are signed. Ant Trail is not formed,
designated or signed, it is informal. This is real world indication.
(5)
"If you are not allowed to ride there is a 'no bikes' symbol"
Yes it does say this. It is obvious that this is badly worded. It is
obviously impractical to signpost every informal trail, shortcut and
animal track. The no bikes signs are only used on signed and
designated walking tracks. Is it suggested that its OK to use informal
bush trails up to the point that Parks notices them and puts up a sign?
(6)
When in doubt, also consider the "on the ground rule"
There is no doubt in this case. Parks Vic is the undisputed
responsible authority, this is not disputed territory like Cyprus,
Kosovo or Crimea. Parks Vic has declared Ant Trail and other informal
trails closed. There is ample evidence on the ground of this.
(7)
"The only 'formed management trail' is the Dargon Track ..."
Formed means earthworks, eg by a grader, spade or bulldozer but not
necessarily graveled. Dargon, Abrahams, Sunset, Lanes tracks all fit
this definition. Ant Trail is a worn trail not a formed trail.
(8)
"Both maps on the parks site are out of date and do not show all the
signed tracks, let alone the unsigned tracks..."
Yes the website pdf is dated 2007 and does not show The Aneurism which
is a signed and designated bike track. Any unsigned tracks should not
be used. The Aneurism is shown on the maps at the Horswood Rd and
Hallam North Rd carparks, these signs are a few weeks old.
(9)
"what regulation governs the restriction to ride a bike on an existing trails"
It is the National Parks Act. It is an offence to use a vehicle in an
area not set aside for vehicles. A Bike is included in the definition
of vehicle in the National Park Regulations 2013
(10)
"there is no sign at this intersection of the fire trails"
I can't view the photo at this link. Where is it? All the
intersections I checked were signposted.
I propose that Stev391's proposed reversion be disallowed.
Thanks Stev391 and everybody who has contributed to the discussion
Tony
Some more photos:
Signage Churchill entrance
https://app.box.com/s/zviqm3j8557nkam003i4ygmfbhqvocd2
https://app.box.com/s/oc7j9ibot7d8v0f8arag53umylo3h9hk
https://app.box.com/s/qvvedurt528k2e7dhygyn2p92sgu6qbz
Signage Ryans Rd entrance
https://app.box.com/s/uh8drkhfkl6nktpq8x92nywnvvcesg1q
The next few photos show the difference between the informal, unsigned
and unformed Ant Trail and the formed, signed tracks:
Designated walking track, (no bikes sign partially obscured by bush)
https://app.box.com/s/rcu8tueulkdmo6axl7olxh4dbt0gn6wf
Lanes Track cnr Ballart Tk
https://app.box.com/s/7uuc944wr7en7mite6r92nrm3id3zeil
Cnr Lanes and Abrahams track
https://app.box.com/s/j9d7p8p0e38r1qzcdezqlf7lok3hjzoj
https://app.box.com/s/gwq2kffqjtewyr93kia5d9rypy0l0wow
Cnr Abrahams and start Ant Trail
https://app.box.com/s/6j2s0i5rjpz3j76p79fd9q4x0phxnl8k
cnr Abrahams and Sunset
https://app.box.com/s/zvq3of1o2fjrvivjroxq8jg5szmqrqsm
Ant Tr (ahead) crossing Abrahams (L-R)
https://app.box.com/s/zk9firj26p2prqz4nifa4km3l8wr7x6w
Looking up Abrahams from Ant Tr crossing
https://app.box.com/s/wdib3k9s5jam1t07l59897z3lt514qbb
_______________________________________________
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
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