Good point. 

A search led me to this discussion 
https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/6728/tagging-historicunsignedunmaintained-trails
 which emphasizes the use of the disuse: or abandoned: prefixes. 

Matthieu G.  (en mode mobile)



Matthieu G.  (en mode mobile)
>> Le 6 août 2020 à 22:15, EeBie <[email protected]> a écrit :
>  Hello,
> 
> In my neighbourhood somone mapped paths and ways that don't exist anymore. I 
> didn't want to delete his work complete and 
> deleted highway=path and replaced it by  historic=path and left name=Voetweg 
> SLH°82. In this way the path isn't visible in the usual map
> but it is visible in an editor and in an eventual special historic map.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Erik
> 
> 
> Op 6/08/2020 om 13:00 schreef joost schouppe:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> The example Wouter showed hurt my eyes too much, so I have deleted some 
>> bits; I marked a few that maybe exist as fixme:highway for now. The user 
>> also didn't snap roads to the rest of the road network properly. 
>> If they don't respond to comments, we might have to consider a user block. A 
>> convincing argument for them to do the work properly could be that we might 
>> be forced to just revert all their work.
>> 
>> Best,
>> Joost
>> 
>> Op do 6 aug. 2020 om 10:45 schreef Wouter Hamelinck 
>> <[email protected]>:
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> Let me start by saying that I have all the sympathy for the aims of the 
>>> mapper. I also have been working with communities to keep vicinal ways 
>>> open. I am also aware that certain ways are only accessible certain times 
>>> of the year due to vegetation etc. Even if a path is not visible at the 
>>> moment you pass there, it might be at other times of the year. In general I 
>>> advocate leaving paths through fields (even plowed) that are legal rights 
>>> of way. My reasoning is that as soon as you pass with a small group a kind 
>>> of path will be visible. On the other hand, if the legal right of way 
>>> crosses buildings, gardens, canals... it makes no sense to put those in 
>>> OSM. Nobody will ever follow those.
>>> 
>>> With that in mind, I've taken a look at some of the changesets that you 
>>> linked to. I didn't like what I saw. People who want to check only one 
>>> example, this is a good one: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/833838389 
>>> There is no place in OSM for that kind of legal fiction. Even not knowing 
>>> the situation on the ground, it is clear to me that nobody will try to 
>>> follow that track. So I would say to revert changes like that.
>>> 
>>> As for the arguments of the mapper:
>>> * Putting something in OSM does not put any pressure on the owner. Nobody 
>>> will be impressed by the argument "you have to keep the way open because I 
>>> just put it on a website where everybody can put things".
>>> * It makes the data in OSM useless. The tracks in OSM are used on a daily 
>>> basis by many, many hikers. The presence of legal fictions in OSM makes it 
>>> useless for them. They don't care where they should be able to pass in 
>>> theory. They want to know where they can pass in reality.
>>> 
>>> In conclusion, the mapper is trying to have some very dubious advantage for 
>>> his personal use and by doing that makes the data useless for all other 
>>> users. For me it is clear that those ways should be removed.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Wouter
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 8:21 AM Matthieu Gaillet <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> 
>>>> Recently an user mapped a set of disappeared “communal” or "vicinal” ways. 
>>>> By disappeared I mean they are physically absolutely not existent on the 
>>>> ground. They were either plowed or constructions were built right on them.
>>>> 
>>>> I believe it goes against the general rule that states that one might only 
>>>> map what’s visible on the field. Additionally the mapping itself was 
>>>> poorly done and the source mentioned was not relevant.
>>>> 
>>>> Using the tag [trail]_visibility=no is not an option here since the user 
>>>> decided to map a unmaintained track road (with width = 4m !) that doesn’t 
>>>> offer such option.
>>>> 
>>>> He denied reverting the changeset, arguing that mapping those paths was a 
>>>> way to put pressure on the Commune and the owner in a discussion about the 
>>>> openness and accessibility of surrounding paths for the general public. He 
>>>> promised to delete the date once the case will be closed.
>>>> 
>>>>> Les sentiers et chemins que j'ai repris sur OSM sont légalement toujours 
>>>>> existants et personne n'est en droit d'empêcher quiconque de les 
>>>>> utiliser, de les réhabiliter ou de les débroussailler... c'est une façon 
>>>>> de mettre la pression sur le riverain... dès que des alternatives auront 
>>>>> été créées et un bon accord conclu, j'effacerai les données au profit des 
>>>>> alternatives qui auront été proposées.
>>>> 
>>>> The changesets : 
>>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927383
>>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927894
>>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927825
>>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88927566
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> What do you think ? I believe that’s not a good way of doing things (I 
>>>> don’t believe in maptivism in this situation) but can’t really find a 
>>>> clear position of the community about this particular case.
>>>> 
>>>> I don’t want to start a fight with that user because he’s really doing a 
>>>> great job at preserving the right of use of those heritage vicinal ways by 
>>>> confronting the Communes against those unfair owners. I would like to show 
>>>> him some string arguments to explain him why his initiative is not good 
>>>> for the community (If that’s the case).
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks for sharing your thoughts. 
>>>>    
>>>> Matthieu Gaillet
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
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>>>                                        - Thor Heyerdahl
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>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Joost Schouppe
>> OpenStreetMap | Twitter | LinkedIn | Meetup
>> 
>> 
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