Hi Ingo and Jason, On Sun, 3 Feb 2019 01:13:18 +0100, Ingo Schwarze wrote: > Hi Jason, > > oh well, these files are a mess, a random collection of funny > and not so funny stuff... I dislike this one, too, for several > reasons. > > 1. While "ad astra per aspera" sometimes occurs, the word order > "per aspera ad astra" is much more commonly used. It sounds > much better - not only because it respects the logical > chronological order, but even more so for metric reasons: > "per aspera ad astra" follows a loosely trochaic rhythm > " - | X- (x)- X- " while "ad astra per aspera" has no > discernible metric whatsoever: " - | X- | - X-- ".
That is not correct because it ignores the fact that Latin employs a quantifying metre, determined by long and short syllables, not word accent. So: per aspera ad astra: v - v v - x (with elision between "aspera ad") ad astra per aspera: v - v v - v x So the word order "per aspera ad astra" clearly fits nicely at the end of a dactylic catalectic hexameter, the common metre employed for epic poetry ( – vv – vv – vv – vv – vv – x). However, I am not aware of any poetic work using the phrase in this metrical position. > 2. It doesn't actually appear to be an antique or even medieval > latin proverb but merely a modern invention. Correct. My Latin corpus (PHI) has 0 occurrences of the phrase. However, a verse from Seneca's Hercules Furens is often quoted as an antique source: Non est ad astra mollis e terris uia. (Sen. HF 437) > 3. According to my latin dictionary, "ad astra" did occur in > antiquity, in a strongly metaphoric sense where "astra = heaven, > immortality, sphere and home of the gods" rather than "stars" - > though the only source cited there is Vergilius, Aeneis: > Macte nova virtute, puer, sic itur ad astra. > literal (hence somewhat misleading) translation: > Blessings on your young courage, boy; that's the way to the stars. > free translation, capturing the meaning and register better: > Go on and increase in valor, O boy! this is the path to immortality. > See e.g. https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Aeneid > Seneca also appears to use it in the context of a demi-god > (Hercules) interacting with the Olympians. > > So "ad astra" appears to be a rather unsual phrase, highly poetic, > suited to heroic legends about gods and super-human men interacting > directly with the greatest gods. Agree on the meaning, but it is far from unusual, albeit quite poetic, yes. It is an expression used almost exclusively in Augustan poetry (Virgil, Horace, Ovid ...) with the connotation of "to the gods". To add to the list: Ov. M. 9, 272 and 15, 846; Verg. E. 5, 51f; Hor. C. 4, 2, 23; Hor. S. 2, 7, 29; Cic. Att. 2, 25, 1. > 4. According to my latin dictionary, "asper" is a very common > adjective with a wide range of everyday concrete meanings: > rough, uneven, sharp, coarse, gruff, wild, disagreeable, > sorrowful, severe, rancorous, ... and more. > It was sometimes - but much less commonly, it appears - > used as a noun, though usually with a qualification in the > genitive, e.g. "aspera maris" = tempests (Tacitus). > When used alone as a noun, it appears to have a relatively > narrow, figurative, relatively mild meaning of "tribulations, > annoying trouble, misfortune"; translations like "hardship" or > "adversity" appear to exceed the severity of "asper(a)", > making it sound too much like serious emergency and distress. Not necessarily. Even in the Tacitus case you cited I'd probably argue for the narrow meaning of "uneven, rugged place", describing the sea's surface during a storm. Whether the adjective has a more literal or more figurative meaning seems to depend not on whether it is used as a noun, but on context. But since "astra" already works in a metaphoric register, your conclusion is correct. > So a fitting translation of "per aspera ad astra", approximating > the meaning and stylistic register of both parts, might be > > "overcoming annoying problems to be elevated immortality" > > which sounds, yes, ridiculous. > > The word "aspiration" is definitely a blatant mistranslation. Yes. > So if you want to keep the entry, i'd recommend > > Per aspera ad astra. (Through hardship to immortality.) ok pascal@ > because that is probably how it is commonly understood today, with > a weakened sense of "immortality" = "greatness, being remembered > for one's achievements after death", and it is also a compromise > not too far deviating from the actual meaning of the latin words, > even if sharpening "aspera" a bit and weakening "astra" somewhat > to smooth out content and and stylistic register. > > I think while the literal translation "to the stars" might work in > a heroic legend, it is quite misleading out of context and ought > to be fixed. > > Yours, > Ingo > > P.S. > I don't know why i looked at this so closely given my disdain for > these files - but from time to time, it appears i fail to sufficiently > tame my appetite for literature. > > > > i agree "aspiration" looks like a mistake. i suspect the intention > > was "asperity", which means harshness and rigour. there is a verb, > > asperate, but i think it's a bit obsolete. > > "Asperity" certainly matches the *adjective* "asper", but it matches > the *noun* "aspera" much less than "hardship" or "adversity" or > simply "trouble". > > > i'm a bit reluctant to just follow wikipedia blindly. i think the > > latin is pural, and "hardships" doesn;t sound awesome when plural. > > The grammatical form is unimportant for the translation in this > case. "aspara" (pl.) = "hardship, adversity" (sing.) is OK, just > like you can translate "glasses" (pl.) to "Brille" (german, sing.). > The idea in the Latin word is that it is plural because more than > one unfortunate element is required to cause hardship, but that > is already adequately expressed in the singular form "hardship". > > > also i prefer "by" to "through": since it's latin, a little > > archaicism is good. > > Not really. It is fake latin, not a real proverb, but a modern > invention. So it should sound natural and modern. > > > "adversity" would be easily understood and have the correct meaning > > (i think). but the translation you recommend (by Finn) restructures > > the phrase. i think it should begin "To the stars" (that's a minus > > for wikipedia too). so "To the stars by adversity." > > You should really invert the order to improve the metric > and follow chronologic order as well as the usual wording. > > > though i suspect "asperity" would have most of us reaching for our > > dictionaries, it's not neccessarily a bad thing. it seems the > > best fit to me. > > No, it only creates a mysterious aura around something that is > actually quite profane and simplistic and maybe even slightly > presumptous in some contexts. >
