Hi Tobias, you mention that you think the #1 missing resource is a server side for tw. I rather think what is missing is a defined protocol in terms of syntax and semantics for tiddlers (i.e. exchange of tiddlers between tw and server and different tw's). The need and applications for server side tw's are very diverse, but with a protocol we could use tiddlyweb and also drupal, xmpp, google pages, ... you name it as a server backend. But if you look at tiddlyweb it defines its own (not standardized) tiddler fields in JSON with semantics attached to them specifically for tiddlyweb. So we need a better tiddler definition. The minimum needed is a tiddler uuid and a semantic definition of what is meant by it (including versioning). Currently tiddlers are identified by title, which is ok for tw use, but not enough once you move to server sides. But there is more to be developed. We should also look at other developments, like Ward Cunningham's federated wiki (a tw frontend would be nice).
Focusing too much on a server side is in my opinion a dead end. There are already countless server based partially tw alike solutions. The strengths of tw are its standalone possibility and the (theoretical) ability to communicate with a variety of servers. And I also think the core should be made more readable, modularized code. tw could also use external libraries for e.g. communication with a server (backbone.js). And also we could improve the non-js visibility by a different layout of the tw source file. tiddlygrp On Nov 10, 1:54 am, Tobias Beer <[email protected]> wrote: > Eric, > > First and foremost, you have been the #1 resource in the TiddlyWiki > community for as long as I know it and I would not like at all to > slowly see you leave this place. > > I am most grateful that you parted some of your valuable knowledge on > the inner workings of this marvelous piece of self-empowerment with > me ...and most all of us here and elsewhere. > > I believe, TiddlyWiki has a lot of potential to empower individuals on > so many levels. But those potentials cannot fully unfold for a number > of reasons which, I believe, are... > - the standalone paradigm, lacking fundamental server-side and > messaging concepts as well as a harmonized "external resource > management" > - an overblown core that imposes much more than a "core" really has > to ...or perhaps a basic MVC pattern that woud allow to easily swap, > at least, the VC part of the portfolio > - an incredibly powerful TiddlyWeb which, presumably, way too quickly > had been pushed onto a "market" (?!?) dressed up in TiddlySpace > garment > > ...but let's not blame TiddlySpace for things. It sure has helped to > further improve its much more essential foundation... which is > TiddlyWeb... thanks to a certain group of very inspirational > masterminds behind both, including Jeremy. > > When it comes to good ol' TiddlyWiki, I would have hoped by now that a > core had emerged (with TiddlyWiki 5?) which is streamlined in just the > same way as a linux kernel supposedly is... or maybe was in some > idealized, imaginary version of it. > > I agree with most of the so far articulated criticism, especially with > all those that call for - and have long called for (including myself) > - a powerful COMMUNITY PLATFORM, i.e. a plugin / documentation / use- > case / etc... repository for the TiddlyVerse. > > I wish this TiddlyVerse had a different "core" in terms of a central > vision, basic tentets and yes, marketing efforts, ...for a "good" and > open-source cause... which made it way more accessible to "the world" > at large. > > I believe, the missing link truly is a server-side that comes along > with the very same spirit of simplicity, expressiveness and > flexibility as TiddlyWiki... which to mold and bake one is free to > explore ...with a reasonable level of expertise, of course ...and, > well, resource requirements. > > Besides being based on python, I don't even think that TiddlyWeb is > that far from being exactly that. Heck, if python hosting were as > popular and freely available as PHP hosting, TiddlyWeb would have > gained significantly more momentum by now. > > Although Wolfgang (and in terms of silence, Eric, too) expressed a > certain reluctancy, I do indeed believe that TiddlySpace (or rather > TiddlyWeb) is a much understated technology that follows exactly this > paradigm... opening up the idea of whatever a "tiddler" represents to > a larger public. > > But then, there is a certain conflict of interest between the self > empowering, standalone TiddlyWiki that we know and have grown to > cherish with all its somewhat hidden, yet feature rich expressiveness > which sure is difficult to decipher and to unveil for noobs or which > for one (who is required to follow "governance" principles or one who > desperately wishes there was a multiuser enabled environment) finds > difficult to rely on the one hand ...and the "centralized" hack- and > expandable community-thing, namely Tiddlyspace, that makes content > generation and sharing "oh so easy" on the other... but maybe also > vulnerable. > > Rather than providing a solid server side, TiddlySpace tries to > compete on a playground where by default it seems to have a tough > standing in terms of marketing budget, conversion potential or > professional appearance that in no way compare to that of Facebook, > Google+ or many, many other content authoring and sharing platforms > like Tumblr, Soup.io and Co. > > Maybe, just maybe, TiddlySpace not only hardly lives up to the > potential that TiddlyWeb has in store but also imposes a governance > pattern to current (server-side) TiddlyWiki development efforts which > creates a funny feeling to a significant number of formerly self- > empowered tiddly-enthousiast. > > One thing is for sure, ServerSides are the way to go in the > TiddlyWorld... based on the powerful idea of a tiddler (or whatever > you want to call it) and the ease of web based data manipulation that > javascript provides... to end users. > > The missing link has always been equally powerful, adaptable server- > sides... providing a persistence layer based on the most simple > patterns conceivable... if not, exactly those that TiddlyWeb already > does entail. > > If TiddlyWebWiki were to marry with projects like Diaspora, > BitTorrent, even Erlang, then we could talk business... but I find it > hard to believe that a "have your TiddlySpace" kind of playground will > live up to its underlying potential, at all... although I do indeed > enjoy my admittedly unstructured (and way too random) 5 minutes of > playing with it here and there. > > Although I would believe that Eric himself never seemed to participate > in or muh care for the server side of the requirement basket (and this > might well be the reason for him being cut off from the funding end) I > think he stands for all the basic goodness that TiddlyWiki can deliver > and for imposing a rigorous filter that does not give up on > expressiveness for half-baked implementations, eventually failing to > live up to this or that web-trend... or maybe not; who knows. > > By all means, I wish you good luck, Eric, and so do I for whomever > contributes to this very educating and marvelous project and the very > enabling potential it unleashes. > > I certainly intend to keep on contributing to this project, as I have > in the past, on a plainly voluntary basis... unless, of course, I > figure out a way to turn this into a business from which both benefit > to a reasonable extend ...the TiddlyVerse and myself. > > Cheers, Tobias. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. 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