Thanks Chris - see below. I wouldn't want to say I've had an epiphany, but I think I've started to crystallise some ideas.
On Sunday, July 22, 2012 7:37:45 PM UTC+10, Chris Dent wrote: > > > First off, I realize based on your comments at the end of your > response that I missed the main thrust of your inquiry which was about > collaboration, I can try to address that in this thread as well, but > keep in mind that I'm just "having a conversation" here so may not > always see the details you want me to see unless you ask your > questions explicitly. > > That out of the way on into some of your comments: > > On Sat, 21 Jul 2012, tejjyid wrote: > > > TiddlyWiki specific; that is, there are a number of plugins that work in > > the TiddlyWiki file format that don't work in Tiddlyspace. > > True. But there are plenty of TiddlyWiki plugins that don't work in > TiddlyWiki when other plugins are in that TiddlyWiki too. The > incompatibility between plugins is a function of the plugins, usually > not TiddlyWiki (that is, the file "empty.html" that you get from > tiddlywiki.com) nor TiddlySpace. > Yes. I think I need to re-think my conception of TW *back* to the idea of the empty.html file. I can see that will be more productive. The compatibility/interoperability of plugins is more usefully a separate discussion. > > There _is_ a subset of TiddlyWiki plugins that create and automatically > save tiddlers, that because of a bug in the core of TiddlyWiki, do not > quite work on TidldyWikis hosted on TiddlySpace: the tiddlers get > created but not saved. A fix for this has been made in the TiddlyWiki > core, but not yet released into the wild, and thus not into the > TiddlySpace ecosystem. There's activite discussion in the > [tiddlywikidev] group about the state of releases. > > So what I'm trying to say is: using plugins in TiddlyWiki has always > been a bit of crapshoot, long before TiddlySpace ever came along, and > it is often the case that some experimentation is required to get > things to work as desired. > > One of the early goals of TiddlySpace was to make it easy for people > to establish known-good collections of plugins that other people could > then include in their spaces using the inclusion mechanism. When I say > "people" here, I mean members of the using public. > I'm not sure how that's working, BTW, in terms of the "known". No mind, I'll think about that as I get moving on documentation. I'm thinking of starting a thread here for discussions about documentation strategy/standards. > > > I understand that now, but I note that you introduced a "new" concept, > > TiddlyWeb to explain it. > > That's pretty common when explaining anything isn't it? Well, I hope not, but never mind. > If you like we > can go back to first principles, but in the name of expediency and > efficiency I'd like to be able to assume that you have access to the > internet and are willing and able to learn? > I'll let you off explaining the first principles, so long as they're written down somewhere and you keep telling me where that is. FWIW, I think you have supplied me with enough documentation for a little while. Thanks, I like to read. It might be my best thing. > > http://tiddlyweb.com/ > > TiddlyWeb is the core web service that runs underneath TiddlyWeb. > > If we are to go back to first principles then it is important that we > engage in a dialog rather than me guessing everything you might want > to know. I can't make that guess so my only option there would be to > write endlessly about things. If I did that there wouldn't be any > TiddlySpace. If I started doing that now, then when TiddlySpace broke > I would be too busy writing for you to fix it. > > However, if we engage in dialog I can target my responses and we > _both_ become more aware of what matters, what is missing and we are > both empowered to share with other people. > That's fair enough. I'll try to be more precise. > > > I know it's true that a space MAY be thought of as a tiddlywiki hosted > on > > tiddlyweb, but it's clearly a bit misleading. > > No, it's not "clearly". I'm not yet fully understanding where you feel > you've been misled? > I think there's quite a big difference between this description, and the idea that TW is an application running on a datastore called TiddlySpace (Which was my understanding of something you had said elsewhere). I still think it's a big difference (hence misleading) but I doubt now whether the difference will be that important in the overall scheme of things. For different users, there may well be different descriptions. > > > I would never ask "why bother"; my questions would be much more along > the > > lines of > > a.) Why keep it secret? > > b.) What are some ideas for how/when/why to think about when to use each > > path? > > a) There's no intention to keep it a secret. It is, pretty much, a > resource allocation problem. The information is out there, but it is > not discoverable and that is bad. There have been some > misunderstandings about how or who is supposed to be managing taking > the esoterica that people like me write and packaging it into coherent > pieces of documentation. There's hope that this will improve somewhat > now that the technical underpinnings of the service have reached some > level of stability/maturity. > Yes, sorry, that was unnecessarily snarky on my part. > > b) That's a very good question and I don't know that there is yet a > good answer because though the technical underpinnings have some > maturity, the UX does not. The decision tree at the moment is probably > something like: > > * Do you like TiddlyWiki? > * then use the tiddlywiki path > * Are comfy with writing or assembling your own javascript, css and > html? > * Yes: then use the other path > * No: use the the tiddlywiki path > Yes, although I like "edit" for journalling on the bus. > > > Well, I will - but I note that you haven't mentioned collaboration at > all, > > and I don't quite understand where it fits in to what you have said. > > "Collaboration", as a use-purpose, and the primary reason I switced from > > Tiddlyspot to Tiddlyspace, wouldn't be expected to be specific to one of > > json/wikify/htm/txt/atom access methods, would it?. So is it built into > > TiddlyWeb? Or is it a red herring? Or something else? > > A few points: > > * Because TiddlySpace/Web puts the tiddlers (including the tiddlywiki > form) on the web, it means that they are accessible from anywhere, > by anyone, at anytime (modulo net access but even that is fungible > by downloading a tiddlywiki and syncing it back up later). > > * TiddlyWeb has the concept of users, which TiddlySpace uses to have > the concept of members. Any space can add as any members as the > existing members wish to add. For example you can add additional > authors in the andrewsimon space from here: > > http://andrewsimon.tiddlyspace.com/_space > > * Those additional representations provide a mode of tracking stuff. > For instance you can subscribe to the Atom feed of a space, by which > a group can then track what's going on it. > > * TiddlyWeb supports a technique to avoid what is described as the > lost update problem[1]. What this means is that multiple people can > edit in the same space at pretty much the same time with low risk of > clobbering content. > > * There's a project called AMBIT on TiddlySpace which is a good > example of collaborating groups: > > http://tiddlymanuals.tiddlyspace.com/ > http://ambit.tiddlyspace.com/ > I just saw this in the other group and will certainly check it out. My collaboration interest is for a group of teachers who when not teaching are mainly actors, musicians, filmmakers, dancers and writers (i.e. the long term unemployed). They are radically non-technical, but all pretty switched on. I think AMBIT may have some good ideas for this. > > Those things above are for collaboration where there is a collection > of people who have already identified as some kind of group and > through the membership concept have access to the same content. There > are also proto-groups which collaborate by seeing other people's > content and annotating their own to refer elsewhere. The following and > reply concepts in TiddlySpace (which are not yet fully formed) are > designed to support this kind of interaction. > Pmario's sent me some stuff on this, will follow up soon. > > > It's not a given that I'm necessarily interested in the Tiddlywiki > > interface - it's just what I happen to know right now, and what I guess > > most people coming into Tiddlyspace know. What I'm interested in is > > functionality around collaborative work practices. > > At the moment the most effective way to learn about and improve that > interest is to talk with people who are in the same boat. It's what > I'm interested in as well. Your input and feedback, but most > importantly conversation, will drive things forward. > > I think the documentation exercise will keep me busy. Thanks for the time/effort on this to date - I certainly feel a lot more comfortable in terms of being able to think about the whole TS/TW universe. Hopefully I can reciprocate with something useful. > [1] http://www.w3.org/1999/04/Editing/ > -- > Chris Dent http://burningchrome.com/ > [...] > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/-/vB9BCN7wlMQJ. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
