Jim wrote:
> Why is submit such a bad thing? Is it just something that
> culturally, psychologically, tends to produce a reflexive
> reaction that says "No way I submit to anything or anyone."
Submission, in most people's eyes, is equivalent to
subservience. Perhaps that's a false relationship, but it's a very real
one. Consider such phrases as "submit to tyranny," "submit to the yoke,"
or "submit to punishment." All of these use the term correctly; all of
them are very negative in implication and content.
Women and minorities, in particular, are strongly affected by
this concept. As you know, for a very long time, both were severely
oppressed by society--and even today some of that oppression exists,
particularly in less developed parts of the world. To suggest to a woman
that she "submit" to her husband is very much tantamount to suggesting
that she return to a greater state of oppression. That the Bible only
requires this of women, not men (and claims to the contrary are NOT
valid--an injunction to submit to a deity or a group of like-minded
people is _not_ the same as a specific injunction for a woman to submit
to her husband with no identical injunction for the man to submit to his
wife), which, of course, is a measure of the patriarchal times in which
it was written (when women were viewed more as the property of a man
than as his intellectual and physical equal [the Biblical quotes in a
previous message only referred to a "spiritual" equality among men and
women, not an intellectual one, and one not intrinsically different from
the pre-Civil War South where African-Americans were viewed as
"spiritually" equal--once converted, of course--but not intellectually])
is clearly a reasonable point for women (and others) to find unfair.
> Granted we may differ in the extent, degree, and to whom we do
> this to, but certainly we don't see submission as the beast itself?
> Do we?
Given the negative implications of the word, yes.
> Isn't submission putting your own agenda aside for someone
> else's, whether for a moment, or for a certain amount of time?
> Isn't that part of healthy relationships?
No, that's caring or dedication, both very different things (and
both part of a healthy relationship, obviously). Submission addresses
concepts of inequality and is as much a part of a healthy relationship
as Domestic Violence is--for similar reasons. One of the most common
concerns I hear voiced by battered women I work with is that by refusing
to submit to their husbands they are either: (1) deserving of their
"punishment," or; (2) acting in a "sinful" manner--as their husbands
have repeatedly told them.
> Is there something psychologically terrible that some see in the
> act of submission???
Oppression and the stifling of self-esteem.
> We submit all the time, don't we?
Not by choice.
> When my government sends me a 1040, I submit to the law and
> complete it accurately.
True.
Would you do so if no consequences for not doing so existed?
You "submit" to the State because you fear the consequences of
not doing so (imprisonment, fine, a breakdown in social order, etc.),
not because you voluntarily choose to do so--and _any_ act that occurs
as a result of fear or oppression is a negative one.
By choice I would live in a society with no victimless crime
laws, low taxes sufficient to cover the needs of the State and the
citizenry only--not to support pork barrel projects or a huge prison
system, over 68% of the inmates of which committed acts that harmed no
one except themselves (gambling, prostitution, personal use of drugs,
etc.). That the society I live in requires me to submit to laws with
which I disagree and to submit to paying taxes to support institutions I
don't believe serve a useful function to society isn't a matter of free
choice; it's one of external control.
> When the light turns red, I submit to the local authorities and stop.
If there was a traffic light in the middle of a straight, empty,
road at a point where no other street or driveway crossed it, would you
stop for a red light there?
If the answer is yes, you clearly fear the consequences of
displeasing the State to a greater degree than you fear the loss of
personal self-direction.
If the answer is no, you admit that the only reason you DO
submit to the law concerning red lights is because that specific law
makes sense to you from a social or survival perspective.
Neither of these alternatives demonstrates "submission" as a
positive.
> When my boss asks me for a report I submit to his leadership
> and do it.
And for precisely how long will you continue to do so if he
stops paying you for your work?
Are you submitting to his leadership, or fulfilling the terms of
an employment contract that exchanges your labors for what you deem an
acceptable compensation.
Would you "submit to his leadership," if instead of a report he
asked you to violate your standards or commit a crime? I doubt it
seriously. Yet if you would not, you can't legitimately claim to have
"submitted" to his leadership, only to accepting it as a condition of
your employment.
> And don't couples mutually submit to each other, in some
> sense? Haven't you ever did something for your wife or
> husband, even if you didn't want to, for the greater good of the
> family?
Sure I have--many times.
That has nothing to do with submission, only with caring. I
don't do things for my wife/family because I am submitting to them, I do
them because they should be done, a very different matter.
I've seen submission work in marriages--but only in those that
are based on D/s relationships (Dominance/submission is part of the bdsm
lifestyle, although not necessarily involving pain or punishment). In
those relationships, it is clear that one partner is the
"master/mistress" and the other the "submissive/slave." If those roles
fit the psychological needs of the partners, then, yes, submission is a
positive in that relationship. On the other hand, few of us find that
kind of interactions to meet our needs, and thus for most of us to
submit is far from a positive act in our marriages.
> Isn't that part of the problem with marriages today - each person
> wants it his/her way, and wants a spouse that will bend and
> conform to his/her desires.
On the contrary. To want a spouse that will "bend and conform"
to one's desires is, specifically, to want a spouse who will submit to
him/her. Your own argument demonstrates one of the greatest reasons many
of us find submission such a "bad thing."
> I do a fair amount of marriage
> counseling, and see a lot of conflicted couples who refuse to
> submit to the greater good. Each wants the other one to grow
> up, to accede to their wishes, etc., but is often unwilling to
> respond in kind!
Try eliminating the concept of "submit" from your image and
replace it with "commitment," "cooperation," or "concern for the other's
needs" and you'll find a much healthier concept.
> Marriage is not just about finding the right person, it is being the
> right person. It is giving and loving and serving.
Why "serving?"
The other two are very accurate, but "serving?"
Sorry, Jim. My wife is my equal in every meaningful way. She may
fulfill certain responsibilities in our household, just as I do, but
those actions are based on mutual concern, not on "serving."
> Non-religious
> marriages may be more egalitarian, and therefore preferable,
> but isn't there mutual submission occurring there too?
Not in healthy relationships it isn't.
> After all, the biggest change in my marriage was learning to
> submit to my wife's needs and desires, and she to mine.
Perhaps a focus on cooperation and caring would have
accomplished the same goal w/o the need to "submit" to anyone.
> When my wife asks me to take the kids to the grocery store
> because she's had them all day I submit to her wishes for the
> greater good of the family.
No, actually, you don't.
You may (and should in such a case) be willing to do so for her,
but acting out of love or concern is NOT acting out of submission.
Consider the forms of the word itself; do you really see yourself as a
submissive man? Or view your wife as a submissive woman? If not, then
how can "submission" be reasonable or desirable?
> When my wife asks me to take the trash out every night because
> she simply doesn't want to, I submit to her request.
You accede to it--you don't submit to it.
> I submit to my wife all the time, esp when I see her needs as
> greater in that situation than mine. Any time she goes through a
> period of unhappiness it may be partly due to my inability,
> perhaps unwillingness, to ascertain how to fulfill some of her
> needs.
Fulfilling someone's needs is not submitting to them--it is
demonstrating caring and concern, something we do as equals not as a
result of a power differential, self-imposed or not.
> Certainly we're not haggling over submission itself, are we?
Yes--if you use the word correctly--we are.
Submission is the act of demonstrating inferiority to someone
else (who is, therefore, viewed as superior). It isn't an act of love,
of charity, or of concern; the roots of the word and it's concepts are
far too negative for that.
Perhaps in the way you use the word, it would be a positive--but
the fact remains that you are NOT using it in the literal sense. By
defining the term in my own manner, I could present "evil" as a positive
(were I viewing it as a rejection of artificially imposed restrictions
based on religion instead of logic), but it wouldn't change the meaning
of the word to those who read or heard it--nor would it justify my
telling clients that they should act in a evil manner in order to free
themselves of a rigid mind-set.
> I submit the world becomes a better place with more of this
> thang, not less.
Submit to whomever you want, Jim. I'll stick with the concept
that my actions should be based on a combination of logic, compassion,
and concern for others (and, obviously, for myself as well)--and should
be performed as an equal, not because I submit to the will of others.
Rick
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". . . and the only measure of your worth and your deeds will be the
love you leave behind when you're gone." --Fred Small
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