Rick, No problem. I'm enjoying the discussion. As for whether I agree - I think Jeff's reply to your post is more eloquent than anything I could say.
Larry -----Original Message----- From: Rick Froman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 12:01 PM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences Subject: RE: letters of recommendation and 'belief' in evolution I am sorry about the last line of my previous note. I was in a hurry to get to class (which isn't an excuse because I should have waited to send the note until after class) and I didn't mean to say that Larry was an indoctrinator (and certainly not an inquisitor). Please accept my apology. I was simply trying to make a logical argument that I assumed Larry would agree with. Rick Froman Dr. Rick Froman Associate Professor of Psychology John Brown University Siloam Springs, AR 72761 (479) 524-7295 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: http://www.jbu.edu/academics/sbs/rfroman.asp -----Original Message----- From: Larry Daily [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 10:22 AM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences Subject: RE: letters of recommendation and 'belief' in evolution Ouch! I don't think I'm advocating a loyalty oath. I have an understanding of psychology as an empirical discipline - as a science. "Beliefs" in psychology are supposed to be rooted in the evidence. As far as I understand it, the evidence we have is very decidedly against acceptance of the things you mentioned. A student who still accepts the existence of ESP despite the evidence (or lack thereof) has obviously missed something that I consider to be crucial to being a psychologist. Please note that I haven't barred that student from attending grad school nor have I threatened to torture the student if he/she doesn't recant. I've simply said that I should have the right not to support that student's entrance into a grad program if I'm not comfortable doing so. The student can still seek out other profs who don't share my position - there are obviously many folks who do not (and I'm not threatening to torture them either). If lack of a letter of support from me is sufficient to prevent a student from attending grad school, I'm far more powerful than I thought and I really need to go see my VPAA about a raise... Larry -----Original Message----- From: Rick Froman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 10:53 AM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences Subject: RE: letters of recommendation and 'belief' in evolution It is not a symmetrical situation. Loyalty oaths and belief and faith in agreed upon doctrine are supposed to be a quality of faith-based endeavors, not scientific ones. In fact, when education's mission is to shape belief, it is called indoctrination. Especially if the education is considered to be a failure if beliefs have not been modified. A person who would evaluate the success of an educational experience based on belief outcomes is an indoctrinator not an educator. Rick -----Original Message----- From: Larry Daily [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 9:39 AM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences Subject: RE: letters of recommendation and 'belief' in evolution Rick Froman wrote: > Student beliefs in these concepts do violate the naturalistic assumptions of scientific psychologists. > Belief in these phenomena would indicate a repudiation of the most basic assumptions of scientific > psychology. How could a person study scientific psychology while believing in supernatural explanations > for psychiatric disorders (demon possession?), dreams (prophecy?), ghosts, and ESP? Rick, I honestly feel that if a student has gone through 4 years of education in psychology and still believes in these things, you'd be justified in not writing a letter of recommendation supporting that student's entry into a graduate program in psychology. Letters of recommendation are the opinion of the writer (as opposed to the "objective" material on the transcript) and are designed to get at facets of the student that the transcript does not convey. If a prof feels that a student must accept evolution as part of being a good doctor, he is justified in not writing a letter of support for a student who does not accept that. I would have grave reservations about recommending a student for grad school who was so untouched by my program that he/she could get through it still believing in demonic possession, prophecy, ghosts, and ESP. I'd like to turn things around for a moment. I grew up Catholic. I can accurately describe the Catholic position on most issues and discuss why Catholics believe as they do. I do not, however, believe that stuff anymore. Would anyone feel comfortable writing a letter supporting my entry into seminary? Would you allow me to preach in your church? Should I be able to *make* you write me such a letter? Respectfully, Larry ************************************************************ Larry Z. Daily Assistant Professor of Psychology Director, Honors Program Department of Psychology White Hall, Room 213 Shepherd College Shepherdstown, West Virginia 25443 Psychology phone: (304) 876-5297 Honors phone: (304) 876-5244 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://webpages.shepherd.edu/LDAILY/index.html --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
